Catholics

[Kant we all...]

As I was gazing around on www.americancatholic.org , I noticed somewhere at some time (but when I went back I could not seem to find it) that "vengeance belongs to God alone."

Yet, by a certain line of reasoning, we could argue that--just as God could be said to be overseeing the process of evolution, or as he could deem authority over the phenomenon of open-heart surgery on a patient as a "miracle" of healing--God's vengeance on Iraq is being carried out "by" or "through" the United States...could we not? Granted, I do not have a solid opinion on this idea, and it is mere speculation.

Nevertheless, radical, Shi'ite Islam cannot be justified in a similar respect, for they are persecutors; they attack because they misunderstand the point of their own scriptures. Nor am I claiming that this war can be, in any way, "holy." I am only asking, Is it possible that by some "Intervention" on the part of God,--by God's mysterious manipulation,-- Saddam Hussein is "receiving his reward" by the United States, for the violations of the mandates set forth by the (much as I loathe this term) "international community"? That is to say, is it inconceivable that God is making his Justice come forth by allowing the U.S. to attack (if the attack ever comes)?

 

[Psycho-Cannon]

I find it hard to believe God would choose such an unpopular and unbalanced vasal for his "Act of divine justice".
this is more likly going to go down in History as an act of evil and the devils work.
I don't think God is in the habit of shooting himself in the foot though i'm sure one or two people on these forums could contest that with a humours account or three ^_^

 

[Kant we all...]

"I find it hard to believe God would choose such an unpopular and unbalanced vasal for his 'Act of divine justice'."

I wish I were you. Because then, perhaps, I might have an inisight into "how God thinks."

"this is more likly going to go down in History as an act of evil and the devils work."

Of course it is likely. It is also likely that the fossils were placed here by God to make us "think" that the world evolved. But, as Saint Augustine might contend, if God is all-good, all-powerful, all-etc., then he would only allow an "act of evil" in the event that he could make a greater good arise from it--whether in the current, or in the long run.

"I don't think God is in the habit of shooting himself in the foot..."

I am, again, baffled by the fact that you and God think so much alike! Tell me, enlighten me, stimulate my intellect: How do you know that God isn't in the habit of shooting himself in the foot? Might not God eliminate all possibility of belief in his goodness so as to make our faith stronger, for that matter?

Does God think as humans do, necessarily?

 

[Coldrake]

Well, if we're going to talk about a god, as in the god of the Bible, then no, I don't think he would take sides in what would to him seem to be a trivial issue. If, and I sat IF, we can take the Bible as gospel, then the god of the Bible is not going to interfere in the indulgences of Man until such time that he would choose to destroy the world yet again. Unless of course, this is that time. As long as we're what iffing, maybe this is the next cataclysm; God is going to goad the US into destroying Iraq in such a devastating manner that it starts the next world war and voila, Armeggeddon. Maybe God has already found his next Noah and he is secretly building his fallout shelter for all the pairs of animals in the world as we type. Hmmm...no. I don't think God is paying any attention.

 

[thecurly1]

MOVE THIS POST TO RELIGION!

 

[(Q)]

It is also likely that the fossils were placed here by God to make us "think" that the world evolved.

This makes no sense. What would be the point of having “faith”? Why would God wish to confuse everyone on this most critical issue?

I agree with Curly.

 

[Tiassa]

God works in mysterious ways

I understand the sentiment that vengeance is God's alone.

Analogously, we might look at the Germans, who have been quite pacifist since World War II. Well, having been involved in the starting of two of the worst wars in world history, it is entirely possible that the Germans have appropriately learned the lessons of what warfare solves.

Catholicism, in history, has been militant to the point of the ridiculous. There is no justification for the savagery that fills a good portion of the Catholic experience in history. However, as we see, Catholicism has rendered itself partially impotent. The Church is unable to protect its most important sheep--the children--from itself; the Pope has copped to evolution; there is a certain sense of quasi-realistic dread about Catholicism these days that reflects the times. While even I am critical of the ability of the Christian collective to learn en masse, I have no basis to rule such communal learning impossible.

In that sense, we must simply hope for the best. The Catholics, as the Germans seem to know, should hopefully know what war brings.

The Americans, too. But when you get right down to it, we haven't ever been seriously kicked in a war. Vietnam was a debacle, but this nation has never been overrun since we overran the continent. The coming storm will probably not be enough to teach Americans what they so vitally--for the world's sake--need to learn. But we can always hope.

Of course, this could wind up just being arbitrary bitching from the Vatican, in which case I would be greatly disappointed. But this is bigger than someone telling me simply what Jesus tells them their heart says; I'll lend them the Pope two cents' credibility if it will help bring peace.

Of course, as I note: God works in mysterious ways. Maybe a desperate, crazy dictator emptying a horrible arsenal to the four winds is exactly God's way. Maybe a goofball American president rushing to war is exactly God's way. Ours is not of God to question why, ours is but to simply die. As to what takes place among people: tomorrow comes, we must hope for the best while demanding even better.

Anybody who asserts "God's way" must make sense to any of us is conning you.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[SwedishFish]

I'm unfamiliar...how has catholicism been militant?


maybe i was missing the point but kant, it seemed you also know what "god" is "thinking".

 

[shadows]

it was militant in its early days. I believe that most religon is mostly bullshit

 

[Coldrake]

*GASP*

 

[Psycho-Cannon]

Originally posted by Kant we all...
"I find it hard to believe God would choose such an unpopular and unbalanced vasal for his 'Act of divine justice'."

I wish I were you. Because then, perhaps, I might have an inisight into "how God thinks."

"this is more likly going to go down in History as an act of evil and the devils work."

Of course it is likely. It is also likely that the fossils were placed here by God to make us "think" that the world evolved. But, as Saint Augustine might contend, if God is all-good, all-powerful, all-etc., then he would only allow an "act of evil" in the event that he could make a greater good arise from it--whether in the current, or in the long run.

"I don't think God is in the habit of shooting himself in the foot..."

I am, again, baffled by the fact that you and God think so much alike! Tell me, enlighten me, stimulate my intellect: How do you know that God isn't in the habit of shooting himself in the foot? Might not God eliminate all possibility of belief in his goodness so as to make our faith stronger, for that matter?

Does God think as humans do, necessarily?

Lol woah woah woah sory i didn't expect anyone to take it so seriously.
Given it the forum in which this was placed i assumed it was going to be fairly light hearted.
It was just a though but not a serious one, whilst i used to be quite religious i haven't given the subject much serous though for many years.
It was just meant as a light hearted comment.
i take it you take religion seriously then ^_^
I'm not going to go TV Evangalist on you and claim to have a hotline to god or know how he thinks ^_^
I just grew up in a Christian background being taught about God (Vengefulness and all) but always being shown whilst he can beh very nasteh, when he acted through human parties they were always Charismatic nice guys (I think again i said its been many years)
Unfotunatly religion and God are subjects that can't really be discussed at length here i don't think but if you want to carry this on in Religion then i guess i can get my faith hat back on.

 

[Tiassa]

Long history

I'm unfamiliar...how has catholicism been militant?

Examples abound:

- Urban II at Clermont, 1095

All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide." (Fulcher of Chartres)

And turning to the bishops, he said, "You, brothers and fellow bishops; you, fellow priests and sharers with us in Christ, make this same announcement through the churches committed to you, and with your whole soul vigorously preach the journey to Jerusalem. When they have confessed the disgrace of their sins, do you, secure in Christ, grant them speedy pardon. Moreover, you who are to go shall have us praying for you; we shall have you fighting for God's people. It is our duty to pray, yours to fight against the Amalekites. With Moses, we shall extend unwearied hands in prayer to Heaven, while you go forth and brandish the sword, like dauntless warriors, against Amalek." (Balderic of Dol)

- Albigenses (New Advent): I like, for instance, that the Catholic Encyclopedia merely notes: The heresy disappeared about the end of the fourteenth century.

Disappeared, you say? As Religion Portal notes:

Innocent III called on the faithful everywhere to destroy them._ In 1209 a large army was gathered and equipped under the guidance of Simon, earl of Montfort._ Terrified by this host, Raymond yielded to the demands of the Pope._ A nephew of Raymond prosecuted the war, but was at last forced to submit. Honorius III, the successor of Innocent was determined to complete the work, he prevailed on Louis VIII, king of France to march at the head of a great army, Louis IX finished the work of his dad._ St. Louis's war, was a terrible and bloody war, which has continued for several years, and thousands of innocent were slain._ The Church of the Albigenses were drowned in blood._ The beliefs included denying the intercession of saints, purgatory, and other errors of Rome._ The charge against them by their enemies was that they denied the sacraments._ The bloody wars and persecutions ended this church.

These are just a couple. Catholicism has a long history of persecution and military intervention.

:m:,
Tiassa