catholic sex offending priests

robtex

Registered Senior Member
I glanced at a paper today and saw where another Catholic priest, Gregory Aymond, stepped down after admitting to having sex with a minor some ten years ago (ie statutory rape). I told my catholic friend at work about it and his response oh it wasn't a boy he molested?

The catholic church has long been accused of cover-ups and hiding sex crimes and protecting sex offenders amoung their clergy.

two websites for reference

http://www.ncrnews.org/abuse/

http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/bi/dallas/2002/priests.cgi

I have to ask at this point where is the line to be drawn when the religious community as a whole protects immoral and illegal activity (by silence and non advertisement) and how much responsiblity should they bear to make their religious community a moral and safe place for children?
 
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If they remain quiet then they are complicite in the crime. I think there is something seriously wrong with the idea that a man of the clergy must be celibate I mean this is what we are biologically made to do. Spending a lifetime repressing that urge or ignoring it can't be good for a person.
 
path said:
If they remain quiet then they are complicite in the crime. I think there is something seriously wrong with the idea that a man of the clergy must be celibate I mean this is what we are biologically made to do. Spending a lifetime repressing that urge or ignoring it can't be good for a person.


1) I would go one step further and say if they remain quite they are aiding the crime and future crimes--encouraging it and morally propogating it. They create an atmosphere of acceptance with their apathetic or denial approaches. It is something you that an indivdual cannot be neutral with. Being neutral is accomodating the behavior.

2) The celebancy thing is an excellent point and the Catholic church has been a living experiment of it for a long time.
 
robocop

paedophiles and homosexuals turn too god hoping he can cure them
they cannot accept there sexuality so they wrap themselves up in the catholic church

god cannot cure people of there sexuality he made them that way

the paedophiles i condemn most are the ones who become scout leaders or youth workers because they are activley looking for children to tease themselves with

the ones that become priests have only one redeeming feature they tried to use religous faith as a cure, it sounds absoultely stupid to everyone but them to try this
they are to be pitied and hated

but the scoutmasters or youthworkers are to be depised
they never seek help or religon they just seek kids
 
Vince, excellent point about boyscouts and paedophiles but the boys scouts do not work as a organization to protect their members from the law. The catholic church does. I can say with great confidence that a scoutmaster or youthworker who commits a sex crime is

1) going to kicked out of the organization
2) not going to be shielded from legal action
3) is probably going to collaborate to help convict the said offender

The catholic church by contrast does the exact opposite they:

1) do not remove members from the congregation
2) apply cover-ups to shield the sex offender
3) inhibit police invisigations to a point by playing dumb.

The catholic clergy as a whole does this and trying to get through to those jokers is pointless but the congregation could be different. I would have a hard time believing that in some of the larger or medium size churches that the congregation is unaware of the actions, espcially since reaccurance rates amoung sex offenders is high. I am saying that if they know and help the clergy suppress it until there is a next victim and a next than they too are moral (though not legally I guess) responsible for the sex offender/priests actions.

Actually, it would be nice if the goverment of the country where the sex offense occured could just fine the vatican every time an a priest fess-up or is convicted of a sex offense. If they are not going to make an effort to diminish the activities of it the least they can do is montarily contrute to the expense of the aftermath (ie rehab) of the sex offender and victim.
 
the church is guilty of a massive cover up i agree
i can only suggest they use lie detectors to weed out paedophiles and homosexuals
who are seeking priesthood as a cure

lie detectors sounds crazy but it is the only way to stop these embarassing incidents
because as long as there are paedophiles. some will always try to infiltrate the church
for some sort of supreme power from god to cure them

would not any religous faith or organization try too cover up such a massive amount of paedophiles in there working force

i would imagine there are still thousands of acting paedohile priests working in churches today

and any priest who is truly a man of god should not turn down a lie detector test
to proove his mind is on god and not on shagging his alter boy flock
 
Most homosexuals become monks because of social stigmatization (prejudice) that comes from religion. Most of them are from families with many religious members and that alone make them feel uncomfortable with themselves thinking that they are sinful because of their sexual orientation. That is a kind of mental sickness and those people make it worst by enclosing themselves in a monastery trying to practice celibacy. Their true nature will come up sooner or later, they cannot escape it.

The same goes for heterosexuals who are just a small minority between those monks who practice celibacy. They cannot escape it if they previously had a sex life.
 
And btw..when we talk about these crimes....we should generally talk about all churches. These phenomena do not only happen in catholic churches so please be reasonable!
 
beyondtimeandspace said:
In response to the issues raised here, I would simply like to direct viewers to the following website:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0011.html


Read your link and I want to point out a few things about he issues presented

starting with # 1

There doesn't seem to be any stats on it but there is strong evidence that the Catholic clergy has a dispropotionate # of pedophiles to most industries. But really that is not the issue. The issue is that one, as a religion you would think that morality (and being a pedophile is immoral) would be a high standard/qualification for a Catholic priest. And second, as an organization they have been very protective of their clergy rapist and molesters.

#3 that is up to the church but they sure are quick to point out what won't work instead of what will. Or even admit their is a problem with their organization's level of sex offenses.

#5 is a red herring again up to the church but it does show that one, they are presenting things that won't work instead of what will and two that they are a very sexist organization.

#7 They have in the past impeded police investigations by playing "dumb", and usually (as with the case of your newest catholic sex offender), just quit or get fired as opposed to tried and punished by the courts. There is something really fishy about that.

But since you brought it up two questions

1) do you think that there is a problem with sex offense and catholic clergy

2) what would be a more pro-active list for solving those problems if you think they exist. As opposed to what won't work like the link you provided.
 
In the strict sense the church is not the law system. If a priest should not work with children, then it's the state's responsibility to make sure. Because it is the state's responsibiliity, the state should have been checking up on these people, making sure they did not work with children. Hence, it's certainly the state's failing, because if they did not think that these people should be working with children, they should have done checks on the pedophiles, and if they did not think these people should be in the community, then they should have put them in a insane asylum or prison.

That said, obviously the church failed in some place. The records may never have been fully checked, a few bishops may have made a few bad decisions.

The issue is that one, as a religion you would think that morality (and being a pedophile is immoral) would be a high standard/qualification for a Catholic priest. And second, as an organization they have been very protective of their clergy rapist and molesters.
How many cases do you know where the bishop/priest was fully aware of a pedofile priest's prior activity but did not stop him?
 
Okinrus, if you go back to the first link (2nd link not working yikes!!) and read the case studies, one at a time, or just a couple of them you will see a pattern. Most of the priests who step down do so after admitting to a sex crime that happened anywhere from 5 years plus or longer ago.

Sex offender research shows that sex offenders are patterned offenders and almost all of them will repeat the behavior without intervention.

Also, the clergy works together in a tight group. I could see maybe one or two guys slipping through the cracks and being able to hide that behavior pattern from people they work with everyday but not as many as seem to hide it from other clergy members. I instead believe that in most cases fellow priests know about the behavior and choose to suppress it, or pretend it is not there. THAT is non-coopreration with the police.

The bishops or whomever in the clergy knows but does not stop the behavior IS NOT just making a bad decision they are helping the sex offender commit future crimes.
 
I will answer your questions, Robtex, then, hopefully, add some helpful reasoning to the major question of "why priest protection from secular courts?"

1. The question has a deceptive undertone that I would like to address (though I'm sure it isn't intended). Yes, anytime there is a priest(s) who performs any kind of immoral action, then there is a problem there. The fact that there are several, however small the number be with regards to the whole of the clergy, priests who have performed pedophilia is definitely a problem, not simply because it's scandalous to a religion who's striven for centuries to clear its name, and teaches honest morality among its members, but also because it's damaging to those victims in a more serious way than victims of pedophilia from persons of different organizations (namely, because it will drive such victims away from the idea of God, which is not a good), not to mention the pschological damage that it does. Yes, it is a problem. However, the deceptive nature of the question may lead some to believe that it is a problem with the clergy as a constitution/life-calling. This, I would not agree with. As can easily be seen, the majority (vast majority) of pedophilia cases are cases of homosexual pedophilia. I do not intend any insinuations about homosexuals here, I am simply stating a fact. What this suggests is that these priests, at least a great many of them, were probably not called to the priesthood as a life's vocation. Rather, these men most likely took up the priesthood because they believed that BECAUSE they were homosexual that MUST be their calling. The Church would never recognize this as proper grounds for the priesthood, and would actually dissuade this kind of reasoning.

This raises another issue, "why were such men, if it was not their vocation, allowed to become priests?" The answer is that in recent years, due to a low number of men being drawn to the priesthood, the Church, in a sense, has been desperate for priests. As a result, the "screening" process, undoubtedly, slackened, and such men were not recognized as they were allowed into the priesthood. The Church recognizes this problem, and, due to the (far too large) number of pedophilic priests exposed in recent years, has been taking steps to correct the problem (ie, putting young men, who are interested in the priesthood, through more a rigorous "screening" process).

Don't be fooled, the Church government (magisterium) has been deeply hurt by the betrayal of these priests, and those who had chosen to "protect" them, and acknowledges that such actions are terrible, and does take action to correct the problem.

2. The link I provided wasn't a means for solving the problem. Rather, it was simply in attempt to bring the issue at hand into proper perspective (that is, that the Catholic priest pedophiles are not a majority figure of offenders in a position of authority, and that that Church (magesterium, not necessarily individual members... the Church as a whole) is not simply sitting idly by and ignoring the issue, nor ignoring the wrongness of those priests).

What can be done, while you may not think it good enough action (I don't know) is to more closely, and more strictly decide who may enter the priesthood. Removal of the priest from his postition of authority, as well as the removal of his clerical status, is also another step to be taken against known offenders, as well as those who helped in covering the actions up. Realize, that for a priest to lose his clerical status it is as good as losing everything you've worked for in life. The priesthood is a position held in especial honor in the Catholic Church, it is a promise and commitment to the service of God by means of sacriments, and teaching. In the Catholic Church the priest has powers that none other have (according to our beliefs). The priest has the power to call God to earth, to call down the power of God to forgive, and to baptize, washing away the stain of original sin, both the power of God to remove guilt of sin, and its metaphysical effects. The priest, unlike a married couple, is a priest forever (even after death). Therefore, to be unable to perform those duties which you have sworn and dedicated your life to is a heavy price to pay (for one who believes it thus). It is like being fired from your job and losing the possibility of living your dream and having your children taken away from you (as a priest, you are to consider all whom you teach and service as your own children, and to love them as such). This is the effect of having the priest's clerical status removed. You may not think it is so severe, but to a man who has spent his entire life training to do one thing, and then to have all that training be useless, it is as though his whole life has been meaningless, and what is worse, is that HE is the cause of its own meaninglessness. The elderly have the most difficulty adjusting to new circumstances. How much different is this than a jail sentence? Protection of other youth? Such men are very closely monitered (at least now) after such actions.

So, even if this doesn't convince you totally, why else would the Church try to protect priests from prison sentences? The answer to this has to do with the esteem that the Church holds for the office of priesthood. In committing such horrendous actions, the priest, himself, defiles the sacred office. The Church desires that the priestly vocation keep its integrity, as well as its dignity. While these priests may have desecrated both the priestly integrity and dignity, the Church would not like to see it further desecrated, which will UNDOUBTEDLY occur if the priest were to be sent to public prisons. You may not consider this to be a sufficient answer, but this is because you do not believe as Catholics believe. As has already been stated, a priest is a priest forever, and so to have a priest abused (no matter their crime) is to defile the priestly office. This does not mean that the priest shouldn't be punished. The priest SHOULD be punished, but not in a way that would allow for abuse.

You may see this as a cop out, that people would become priests simply to receive that kind of protection. However, with the punishments prescribed, and the strictures being put in place against the wrong kind of men being allowed into the priesthood, that objection doesn't hold much weight. It may have held weight 50-100 years ago, but not now, when the Church is now taking the necessary actions (as it deems wise) to prevent such vocational abuse.

*sigh* from the onlooker's point of view, this answer may be entirely unconvincing. However, as a believer, such reasoning holds weight, since in believing as we do, the punishment proscribed to the offending priests is considered quite serious.
 
Beyondtimeandspace that must have been a hard post for you. I got the vibe that is was very emotional and touchy subject for you. You are in no way responsible for the churches actions or a rep of the clergy. The posts were not an attack on you. I singled out Catholism because other Christian religions do not have the surge of sex crimes and therefore I cannot really say Christanity in general.

As far as the deciptive post definently not intentional. My allure to this site is you can put everything on the table. If you find a hidden agenda or such call me on it please.

You said that my deceptive intrepretation was clergy as a life calling. I don't think its a poor choice of calling but I see a problem with sex offenses that is routinely swept under the rug.

You keep bringing up homosexuality has a higher rate of sex offenses than hetro and that is true, but I am not sure why you keep repeating that stat. Are most the pedophiles that are in the clergy homosexual? I am asking cause I do not know.

Recruiting is always a pro-active way to insure a future positive and professional image but the real question is where on the list of priorities does pedophilim fall? High low medium? I would hope in light of the history and rep that the catholic church has today that it would be high on the list.

What is the screening process to becoming a priest and why is their numbers dwindling? Would it be a stretch to say that potentially strong catholic priests are become priests for other Christian denominations to avoid the pedophile label?

In your reply to the link you posted on misconceptions of Catholism and sex crimes does not say they are igorning the issue but the actions the Church does --which seems to be let the guy resign and move on.....does. My high school latin teacher was found out to be a pedophile years after I graduated. The school suspended him pending the police investigation. Helped and aided the local police in everyway. Fired him upon confirmation. Than aided the courts with testimony in his prosecution. In his case he came out and admitted to the crimes just like the Catholics did. That is the moral way to handle this. I have never seen the Catholic church attempt to aid the authorities or courts in any way. They just let him go and move on. To me that is sitting idol.

I understand what you are saying about dealing with internally and that his suffering in the eyes of God is agonizing but it is just a case where I don't concur with that being a strong deterient in as far as that happens everytime one steps down and another one comes right along with the same actions. But I do feel the emotion that it has to you for a priest to be stirpped of his title.

In Texas (where I live) a first time sex offender on average gets anywhere from a 1st to 3rd degree felony(depending on the crime) if convicted, which makes the penalty range anwhere from 6 months jail plus probation to 5-99 yrs jail ((for aggrevated sexual assult) .(sourch tdcaa quick law 2003; anderson and Bradley ). I worked for the county for 3 years and most seemed to get 6 months to two years in jail plus probation usually 10 years in length. In addition they had to register as a sex offender for life meaning the police knew where they lived and how to contact them and they could not live near children. I just said that so people would get an idea of what punishments were par for the course. Most child mestolations fall under a 2nd or third degree felony which makes the range cieling about 20 years confinement.

That is interesting about the priests losing his position of authority with God. And you are saying that that position unless stripped away is for eternity? So when a priests leaves the clergy is he damnned? If he asks Jesus for forgiveness is he still admitted into heaven? How does one gain status as a priest in the eyes of God? What does this status do to one when one passes on?
 
When I was in High school I used to work at the local grocery store chain as a clerk and there was another guy there that was going to become a priest. One time I caught him staring at this girl in the video isle muttering to himself “I can look but I can’t touch” (creepy!) anyway, he got canned for drilling a hole through the attic wall to peep in on the girls dressing room. After that I imagine he went off to seminary school (is that seminary or semenary :bugeye:
 
Alright, just to answer Michael really quick, it's seminary. AND, that is most definitely a bad mode of reasoning for that young man. The Catholic Church, like Christ, teaches that lusting after a woman (as he seems to be) is every much a sin as having extramarital (outside of the proper marital limits) sexual relations. The young man saying "I can look by can't touch" doesn't understand Catholic teaching on the issue at all, and I would be loathe to think that such a man would be allowed into the priesthood.

Now, to answer Robtex, concerning how priesthood is attained and what it does for the soul in the sight of God. The first thing to understand is that everybody shares in the priesthood of Christ. Those that we call "priest" are those who have been consecrated into the priestly way of life. That is, they have been appointed by the Church to be men who are devoted to carrying out the sacramental rituals (except for marriage... the priest is only representative of God's witness to the union) and to be the authoritative teachers of the Catholic beliefs. Once a priest is ordained, he receives what we call an Indelible Mark on his soul. That is, a mark that can never be removed. This means that after death, in heaven or purgatory the soul of the priest will always be recognized as such. What will this mean for such a person? Depending upon the priest's life, it will either be a mark of great glory (if he lived a good life, one truly devoted to his chosen path as priest) OR it will be a mark of great embarrassment and loathing (if, in his life, he lived wickedly, and acted contrary to the promise that he made). This is because, and I hate to sound cliche, but, with great power comes great responsibility. And it's true that the priest is put in a position of great power. Therefore, his sins are considered in a much more harsh light than most other individuals (and moreso a bishop, and even moreso a pope). Therefore, if no matter what a priest does from the point of a terrible sin like pedophilia (whether he receives forgiveness from God, amends his life, and in death attains heaven, or whether he continues in his sinfulness, doesn't receive forgiveness, and in death condemns himself to Hell) that sin will always be an unhappy, and recognized stain on the life of the priest.

So in answer to your questions in the last paragraph, yes his position is an eternal one. No, when a priest leaves the clergy (if he is forced to do so) he is not 'necessarily' damned. What happens when a priest loses clerical status is this: he no longer is allowed, under the authority of the Church, to practice the sacramental rites, nor teach with the authority of the Church. However, his power to do so remains, though in doing so without alllowance by the Church would most certainly be considered highly sinful actions (enough to damn if such actions are not recanted and regretted before death).

How high is pedophile, as a problem, considered within the Catholic Church? It is a serious enough action to separate one from God etenally (given, like any such sins, that particular circumstances are met). For a priest, unless such a one truly regrets such actions in his heart, and recants them before God prior to his death, unless this is done, then such actions do damn a priest, because a priest really knows better.
 
robtex said:
how much responsiblity should they bear to make their religious community a moral and safe place for children?

Let the priests have sex with women, let me not be martrys for their cause and not deny one's innermost urges, let them get married.

A man is a man first, servant later. Why is that so hard to understand!
 
sargentlard said:
Let the priests have sex with women, let me not be martrys for their cause and not deny one's innermost urges, let them get married.

A man is a man first, servant later. Why is that so hard to understand!


Sargentlard,

Buddiest have been celebant for centuries and there is not a run on child molesting monks. Many people are trapped in poor marriages and have no sex life and it doens't occur to them to molest children. The Catholic Church in the link provided by beyondtimeandspace says that is not an issue.

Why do you feel it is one?
 
robtex said:
Sargentlard,

Buddiest have been celebant for centuries and there is not a run on child molesting monks.

They live in, for the greater part, in isolation and practice a life of strict discipline. Preists don't, they live in the same hectic modern world we do and are subject to same sexual tension presented to us in advertising and pop culture.

Many people are trapped in poor marriages and have no sex life and it doens't occur to them to molest children.

Yes but their frustration most likely is why they still don't have one as opposed to a preist who is not suppose to have one. These sexually frustrated people in unhappy marriages are around their spouse and are in a constant state of sexual and mental tension with em....They are too preoccupied with the failing marriage

The Catholic Church in the link provided by beyondtimeandspace says that is not an issue.

Why do you feel it is one?

I fail to see how it couldn't be one. I can see it playing a major part in this scandal...and to use a crude example of prison inmates who forcefully change with lack of any "right" sexual partner around, may be so do these preists change.

It happens for a reason....all I hear is excuses but it is happening is numbers far too large to ignore biological reasons.
 
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