Catherine Austin Fitts--interesting

Agitprop

Registered Senior Member
From Scoop news, article by Catherine Austin Fitts, past assistant director of Housing and Urban development--HUD.

In 1998, I was approached by John Peterson, head of the Arlington Institute, a small high quality military think tank in Washington, DC. I had gotten to know John through Global Business Network and had been impressed by his intelligence, effectiveness and compassion. John asked me to help him with a high level strategic plan Arlington was planning to undertake for the Undersecretary of the Navy.

At the time I was the target of an intense smear campaign that would lead the normal person to assume that I would be in jail shortly or worse. John explained that the Navy understood that it was all politics ---- they did not care.

I met with a group of high level people in the military in the process --- including the Undersecretary. According to John, the purpose of the plan --- discussed in front of several military or retired military officers and former government officials--- was to help the Navy adjust their operations for a world in which it was commonly known that aliens exist and live among us.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0209/S00126.htm
 
John Peterson is the guy that went on about how 60 countries were going to fail because of "Y2K" and has been warning that "if the ice caps fall, the world's oceans will automatically rise 150 feet" sending "massive tsunamis" back and forth across the pacific. -as if the ice caps were in 1) a position to suddenly "fall; 2) likely to melt at a rate faster than currently observed in the natural, post-glacial process.

"When I attended one of my first meetings, I joined in discussion with about 10 people which included James Woolsey, former head of the CIA..."

-How does a person that is supposedly the object of a "smear campaign" (by the government?) have the opportunity to sit in on a sensitive meeting with Woolsey?

-Why doesn't Fitts simply use her "familiarity" with Peterson to get him to set up an interview with Owen Wormser, also on the board at the Arlington Institute?" He used to be with the DoD and was responsible for "Special Access Programs," a.k.a. black budget operations.

It seems clear that Fitts is simply another sensationalist looking to capitalize on the willingness of the American public to believe in conspiracy theories and unfounded, spurious anecdotes about "aliens among us." Fitts certainly doesn't seem willing to offer many names of these "sources from the military and intelligence community" who she claims repeat the "same themes" of government-alien relationships to explain the "black budget."

In short, she's full of shit.

You got anything real to offer the members of sciforums, Agitprop? For the most part, our intellectual level is a bit above this sort of nonsense.
 
Thank you for taking the time to view this compelling information. Your response was emotionally engaging, but did not meet the standards of detachment for my continued interrest. Your time and interest are appreciated and I encourage you to continue your efforts at posting significant responses.
 
So, in other words, you haven't anything of real substance to offer at this time?
 
Skinwalker, I don't generally engage those who resort to scatalogical referances and character assasination when backed into a corner, of their own making. I, again, encourage you to continue to strive for relevance and emotional detachment in your responses to the information I provide.
 
Hey. Like I said: you don't have anything substantial to offer those of intellect and are hoping to appeal to the gullible.
 
Agitprop,
1.When startling claims are made, does the character of the claimant become relevant?
2.If so, would you agree that the objectivity and accuracy of the claimant are relevant to assessing this character?
3. In that case how would you interpret the significance of the facts noted in the first paragraph of SW's post?
 
SkinWalker said:
-as if the ice caps were .......likely to melt at a rate faster than currently observed in the natural, post-glacial process.
Two errors here:
The ice caps are very likely to melt at a rate faster than currently observed. This as a consequence of the disappearance of much of the Ross ice shelf ice permitting a more rapid advance of the feeder glaciers and the general effects of global warming.
The current melting is not a natural, post-glacial process. Whatever the extent of global warming there is a man-made element to it.
 
Being directly involved in the Y2K issues of the time, I can assure you that Mr. Peterson wasn't the only one very concerned about what may occur when we moved into the 21st century.

As Ophiolite mentioned above, the FACT that the Ice caps are melting will likely have some effect on the Worlds oceans. To what effect, I have no idea. But I'm quite sure there are people studying it as we type.

Your attempts to smear here have again failed Skinwalker.
 
Ophiolite, Is character relevant when startling claims are made? First "startling" is a subjective, highly relative adjective. Most "new" scientific claims are startling. Continental drift, dinosaurs, the theory of relativity. Perhaps a better adjective would be "new" rather than startling.

Is character relevant? Certainly when it involves a clear conflict of interest, but character alone? In the realm of science? I don't think so.

Take for example James Randi, the Amazing Randi of Csicop fame, who got caught up in some strange child molestation charge, the details of which escape me. From what I've read he was exonerated, but the taint is likely still there. It would be completely unscientific, if his entire body of work was dismissed due to this charge.

If character alone is admissable in undermining someone's body of work, I could go to town on a number of distinguished scientists, beginning with Hawking. For that matter, just about any scientist, just give me the time. And as members of Csicop are probably well aware, eccentricity doesn't decrease with IQ points, so framing highly intelligent mainstream scientists as complete lunatics, would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
I have clearly not been clear in my post. I am refering to a specfic aspect of character - i.e. the habit of making inaccurate claims on a consistent basis. SW's opening paragraph clearly indicate a history of such inaccurate statements on the part of John Peterson.
If he has made such statements in the past why should we accord much weight to what he says now? That is my question to you and the question remains.
 
Your question about Peterson's repeated pattern of supporting lunatic theories, is fair. However, as VRob pointed out, many people, including the president at the time were worried about Y2K. Much was done to address the situation, as a direct result of that concern. That Y2K came and went without major incident, could be to their credit. There are causality issues that render this an invalid issue with regard to establishing credibility.

The govt is large and byzantine. It's quite possible that one body of govt. or individuals associated with it, could have approached Fitts on one level, while a different branch was trying to engage in a smear campaign on a completely different level. This doesn't reflect badly on either Fitt's or Peterson's credibility.

Reread the article and you'll see that Fitt's conclusions about the meeting were actually guarded. She thought that the meeting could be used as part of smear campaign. She didn't know anyone at the meeting, but John Peterson, if I remember correctly.

VRob, I sent you a private message. Did you read it?
 
The Y2K is secondary, though his approach to it sounds sensationalist. I am more concerned by his apparent nonsense on the Antarctic ice. Your view?
 
Ophiolate, Regarding Peterson's supposed comments on the ice shelf, I'd have to see original source material. It's unwise, I think you'll agree, to rely on heresay evidence.
 
Agitprop said:
It's unwise, I think you'll agree, to rely on heresay evidence.
Which is why my posts are peppered with "If" and "appears". However, if this accurately reflects his position on the polar ice would you agree it calls into question everything he says?
 
Two posts were deleted since they just contained the swapping of messages on whether a PM had ben received. Since they were apart of the topic, they were removed.
 
Ophilolate, Why would someone interested in establishing credibility comment on hearsay evidence? Proper documentation, and refraining from commenting on hearsay evidence, is the crowning glory on the crumbling edifice of the debunker's system of ideation. It would be unfair to YOU, (as I can easily trap you with this method) to remove the capstone that hides the decay underneath, by proceeding down this trail.
 
Crumbling Edifice? Decay underneath? Wow, someone has a axe to grind.

You are relying on double hearsay evidence provided by a sensationalist politician (well, all politicians are sensationalists, but that's another thread entirely) to prove a point about aliens living among us.

Also, I don't like how she states in her article that the probablity of her three proposals MUST = 100%.

It's amazing to me that when groups of UFO/ETI believers get together, they start to feed off each other until they think themselves the majority. I believe that debunkers (as you define them, people that don't agree with you) are acutally the majority.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that there probably is other life in the universe, but I don't think they make it a habit to travel out here like it's a weekend drive.

Maybe they are talking about illegal aliens. :)
 
John Peterson spoke at the Global Trends Conference in Illinois on August 20-21, 1998. You can download the transcript here.

Peterson, who admits that he is often asked to speak at engagements because of his entertaining, "out of the box" approach, broaches several bold topics in his Dinner Speech:

1) Zero Point Energy
2) Cold Fusion
3) Y2K Doom & Gloom
4) Global Cataclysm by Ice Melt

Zero Point Energy
"There were about five different major areas with about 20 different people who were doing research work that literally makes it a possibility that within five years it will be quite clear that you can take energy out of the air. That fossil fuels will be obsolete. It's called zero-point energy."

1998 was 7 years ago. Where's our Zero Point –free energy?

Most likely, what Peterson was referring to wasn't some "20 people" at all. Why 20? why not 19 or 23? In fact, there was really only one person that made the science news in 1997 regarding Zero Point Energy: Harold Puthoff. The same Harold Puthoff that teamed up with Russell Targ and "validated" Uri Geller's claims. The same claims that Johnny Carson effectively invalidated on his show by simply not allowing Geller to use his own props.

Puthoff was featured in a Scientific American article (Yam, 1997) in which it was stated, "Puthoff's institute, which he likens to a mini Bureau of Standards, has examined about 10 devices over the past 10 years and found nothing workable." The article concludes with, " In sizing up zero-point-energy schemes, it may be best to keep in mind the old caveat emptor: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel prize-winning physicist, pointed out the weak nature of Zero Point Energy in a PBS documentary, Scientific American Frontiers. " No doubt there is such a thing as zero point energy and it turns out to be incredibly small. We measure it because energy produces gravity -- that's what general relativity teaches us, that all energy can serve as a source of gravitation and if there was a lot of energy in empty space, there's a lot of empty space in the universe, and it would create very strong gravitational fields which would completely change the way the universe is evolved. And we would know that. And based on that sort of argument, you could say that in a volume of space the size of the earth, the amount of energy is less than maybe a gallon of gasoline."

Back to Peterson's speech: he states "[a]nd now quantum mechanics tells us that it's not true that a vacuum wherever we are, space all over, in outer space and here, is full of huge amounts of energy.
So do we believe Peterson or Weinberg. Hmm... Weinberg is a Nobel prize-winning physicist and Peterson says, " I won't bore you all with the details because I don't even understand the details about quantum flux and all kinds of stuff..." But Peterson maintains that they are "close to doing it" and that they (he doesn't specify) have "done it in small scale on the test bench." I guess they were too busy with their test benches to slid over to their PCs and type up a paper for peer review.

So Peterson moves on to Cold Fusion: "It's [ZPE] real close to this whole area of cold fusion, you know that discredited thing from awhile back. Well, it turns out that there are about 150 laboratories that have replicated the cold fusion experiments; places like the Naval Research Laboratory and so on.

He's got that right, ZPE is "real close to Cold Fusion." 150 laboratories? Maybe in a 150 garages and basements of guys with GEDs because they were "too smart for High School." It wasn't too long after Pons and Fleischmann first announced their claim of cold fusion that it was thoroughly discredited by the scientific community because of poor methodology for the most part and out-right fraud as a secondary factor. The Pons & Fleischmann story is, however, a good read (Park, 2000) in understanding what pseudoscience is capable of.

Peterson's belief that cold fusion was still a viable concept 7 years ago is testament to his sensationalist attitude and desire to astound or entertain rather than the need to be accurate or objective. Park, in 2000, stated (p. 97) "Cold fusion [...] is dead, but the corpse won't stop twitching. Inept scientists who had rushed to report confirmation, greedy university administrators who had tarnished the reputations of their institutions, gullible politicians who had wasted the taxpayers' dollars, and careless journalists who had accepted every press release at face value: all had an interest in pretending the issue had not been settled."

But Peterson will conclude on cold fusion by saying, "Right now they don't know the theory and they don't know why it works" leaving us, again, to wonder what he really does know. But he covers his bases with the statement, "that people who are going to fight it the most are going to be the power companies, because they have all this sunken cost in this infrastructure," so if anyone points out that these energy developments haven't materialized, he can blame the establishment for covering up or suppressing the knowledge.

I have to agree with his assessment of information infrastructure becoming more satellite-based and globally accessible changing the way governments can control information. We've already started seeing some of the http://www.dfme.org/archives/000241.html ]implications of this in Iran.[/url]

Y2K Doom & Gloom
" Y2K is the first of a series of a class of potential big surprises that this planet has never seen before, that they are, number one, global; number two, intrinsically out of control, and number three, they could really hurt you." Peterson clearly overestimated the Y2K issue, as did many in government or the private sector. But the hysteria that surrounded Y2K was brought on by the very "experts" that Peterson claims to be and piggy-backed by everyone who, rightfully, took them to be authoritative. Peterson says, " the possibility, the very real possibility, exists that you could have large-scale electrical failure, electrical power plant failures, that the transportation systems won't work. The CIA says it's 60 countries, 60 countries are going to economically fail because of Y2K." At least he says "possibility," but the message is clear: Doom & Gloom.

I'm sure VRob and others will defend such a prophecy by offering a sort of "Pascal's Wager" that it would be better to expect the worse and get what we got, which was nothing. Perhaps that's the right attitude. But I think Peterson is just another example of a sensationalist working the crowd.

" And Y2K is an example of an event that government will not, cannot control. There is no way that you get success. I mean, they've got their own problems. The IRS is going to fail over this thing, I mean literally. [...]this is a big deal. And government has got their own kind of problem and they are not going to ever be able to control this.... More anti-government diatribe that points to Peterson's attitude of an 'overall conspiracy of the government,' much the same sentiment echoed in Fitts' work. Fitts is also the nutter that went on and on http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0405/S00066.htm ]implying how the U.S. government or aliens were the likeliest suspects in the 9/11 attack on the WTC.[/url] She's critical of those that profit from 9/11, but by simply typing "9/11" and "fitts" into a google search bar demonstrates that she is apparently making a good living in the wake of the tragedy.

Global Cataclysm by Ice Melt
Peterson goes on: "You've got the ice cap potentially melting and sliding into the ocean. This is a real thing that scientists have decided that the Antarctic, a big chunk of ice in the Antarctic that's what 16 miles deep or whatever... [...] If the ice cap fell, the oceans would almost instantaneously rise 150 feet and you'd have these big tsunamis, like a big bathtub in the Pacific Ocean, these big waves running back and forth. I mean, it's stuff that is wild. You've seen some of this stuff in movies."

Oppenheimer cites in Nature (1998) that the mean rise in global sea level, should the ice sheet collapse, would be 5-6 meters. Certainly enough to cause wide-scale flooding, but not nearly the nearly 50 meters that Peterson is citing. The fastest rate that Oppenheimer gives in three possibilities is 50 to 200 year sharp discharge of a process that will take 250 to 400 years overall. Based on data current to 1998, he suggested that the likeliest rate of WAIS (West Antarctic Ice Sheet) contribution to the net global sea-level rise to be 0-19 cm / century over the course of 500 to 700 years. The glaciers of the WAIS are situated in such a manner as to provide relative stability and, even if they were to "detach" they're floating or pinned by underlying bedrock. Wave action in the immediate region would be interesting, but hardly any chance of "back and forth" tsunamis in the Pacific as Peterson suggests.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change notes, "[o]ur ignorance of the specific circumstances under which West Antarctica might collapse limits the ability to quantify the risk of such an event occurring, either in total or in part, in the next 100 to 1,000 years. It must also be said that "collapse" in this context refers to a system collapse by which the WAIS is a system of ablation and accumulation. Not a 'sudden collapse of a massive chunk of ice that crashes into the ocean.' Most of it is floating or resting on bedrock. A portion of the shelf detaching from the rest of it's glacier wouldn't displace a lot of water. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

All in all, some of Peterson's claims at this speech in 1998 are factual, some are based on loose interpretations of actual events, and some are simply hyperbole and sensationalist entertainment.

So I ask, what is the significance of Fitts' meeting with Peterson in the overall attempt to provide legitimacy and status to the "aliens are among us" theme that she so desperately clings to? And why is she so desperate to get this message out?

Either she is:
1) completely genuine: genuine in her claims and the information she them on is too
2) genuinely deceived: genuine in her claims but the information she bases them on is fallacious, fictitious or deceptive
3) delusional
4) lying

The evidence doesn't bear out the first possibility.
Are there additional possibilities?

<img src="http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4033&stc=1">

References:

Alda, Alan (2000). Scientific American Frontiers: "Beyond Science?" Episode 802

Houghton, J. T. et al (1996). Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, pp. 359–405, Cambridge University Press

Park, Robert L. (2000). Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud Oxford University Press

Yam, Philip (1997). Exploiting Zero Point Energy Scientific American December 1997, pp. 82-85.
 
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