Capacitor to store lightning?

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That's just wrong. Voltages don't add in a parallel resistive circuit. Time for that refresher course.

Damn it, MacGyver, I thought I explained it OK.

The voltage in each branch of a current divider is the same in each branch. If each branch has one cap with a higher voltage rating than the voltage applied to the divider, then all of the caps will get charged to the voltage level of the voltage applied to the divider.

Let's plug in some numbers to make the concept easier.

A current divider has five current branches. Each branch has one 50v 20pf cap in it. You connect the divider to a 12v DC source and leave it there.

Here's the math:

Capacitor #1 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #2 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #3 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #4 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #5 gets charged up to 12 volts.

You now have 60 volts of electricity if you remove these caps from the divider and re-connect them in series, don't you?

THAT'S what I mean by multiplied voltage, and it's all done AT THE EXPENSE OF THE CURRENT, which in the divider becomes a fifth of whatever current level was applied to the current divider.

Sheesh.
 
Damn it, MacGyver, I thought I explained it OK.

The voltage in each branch of a current divider is the same in each branch. If each branch has one cap with a higher voltage rating than the voltage applied to the divider, then all of the caps will get charged to the voltage level of the voltage applied to the divider.

Let's plug in some numbers to make the concept easier.

A current divider has five current branches. Each branch has one 50v 20pf cap in it. You connect the divider to a 12v DC source and leave it there.

Here's the math:

Capacitor #1 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #2 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #3 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #4 gets charged up to 12 volts.
Capacitor #5 gets charged up to 12 volts.

You now have 60 volts of electricity if you remove these caps from the divider and re-connect them in series, don't you?

THAT'S what I mean by multiplied voltage, and it's all done AT THE EXPENSE OF THE CURRENT, which in the divider becomes a fifth of whatever current level was applied to the current divider.

Sheesh.

Now that is right! You never mentioned anything about physically disconnecting the caps from the parallel circuit, and reconnecting them series. Why you would want to do that is beyond me, as the goal was to spread out the voltage and current in branches to manageable levels.
 
I said a long, long time ago that the patent office would be able to understand my circuit diagrams very easily, and they really are very easy.

1. A current divider, with a few hundred branches, to reduce the 100KA peak current down to about 1,000 amps (or less)

2. A voltage divider in each branch, consisting of hundreds if not thousands of HV capacitors, to reduce the approx. 500MV peak voltage in a negatively-charged lightning bolt down to a voltage level that's less than the voltage rating on each cap in the series.

3. Some special circuitry to handle any positively-charged lightning bolts that might come along, and

4. Some special circuitry to handle the much higher (maybe double) voltage level of those positively-charged lightning bolts.


PLEASE, EVERYBODY, ignore the question of whether such an apparatus is economically feasible, and what I might or might not do with all this stored electricity. I posted this topic mainly to answer questions, but those questions can't be answered now because economic conditions will be different, maybe very different, by the time I receive the patent that I happen to think I will get.

The U.S. Patent Office doesn't care about the answers to any of these economic questions. All they care about is the science of electricity (and other physics subsets) and whether a capacitor (or two) CAN get charged by a lightning bolt.

I aim to show them that an apparatus that includes a current divider and a voltage divider CAN charge capacitors, using lightning as my sole source of electricity.

Benny
 
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You never mentioned anything about physically disconnecting the caps from the parallel circuit, and reconnecting them series. Why you would want to do that is beyond me, as the goal was to spread out the voltage and current in branches to manageable levels.

At this stage in my ECONOMIC planning, I intend to discharge the caps one at a time until all the electricity has been drained, but that's part of the economic planning that I don't have to worry about until after I get a patent.

Discharging the caps won't even be a part of my patent application anyway. All I'm concerned about, at least right now, is simply showing the patent office that my charging circuitry WILL do what I say it will do.

I may not even mention lightning in the patent application documents, which are still being developed.

Benny
 
An addemdum on my last post.

The U.S. Patent Office has a numbered classification system, to distinguish a patent on a plumber's tool from a patent on a kitchen appliance.

The numbered class that I believe my patent will go into is for charging a capacitor. The patents that have already been granted/issued in this category do not mention the source of the electricity that is used to charge the caps. There are many different methods for charging a cap, according to the texts of the patents in this category, and none of them even specify a voltage level or a current amount, except to show how a voltage level higher than a given amount (never specified in volts) CAN be diverted away from the cap being charged.

My patent may or may not state that lightning will be the source of the voltage that charges the caps in my circuit diagrams. I'm still debating this point as I edit the patent application, all without the help of a patent attorney or a registered patent agent.
 
... Sometime AFTER I receive a patent, I'll do some extensive economic planning to determine the feasibility of collecting and storing DC electricity (using then-current rates, not today's rates) and the economics of selling hydrogen and oxygen from the output of an electrolyzer. All costs, including the prices for hydrogen and oxygen may very well be different by the time I get my patent, which I expect will be two good years from now.
A perfect example of the cart before the horse. A rational person makes at least a crude economic model before seeking a patent on a new means of producing hydrogen, which even the simplest model can show it at least 1000 times MORE expensive than the current means of producing hydrogen.

Perhaps you do not know that it will cost you at least $3000 to get a patent. I have 10 patents, but only paid for one at less than half the normal cost. (My employer paid for the 9 others and owns them. Two are secrete patents, relating to detection of submarines. I am enjoined not to even tell their names. The US navy holds many patents, they will not sell. They do this so they will not need to pay any later inventor.) My cost was low because I was able to get a friend in my employer's patent office to help with the drawings.

I have had a couple of courses in engineering drawing with one afternoon lab each week for a year when at Cornell so am quite skilled in this area, but would never try to make drawings as the patent office requires. For example, they must be done with India ink. The width of the lines is specified and several different widths are required as the width does indicate information also. Patent drawings are a highly specialized profession. Only a fool would attempt to do his own. My friend in the patent office was a professional - My employer submitted about 300 applications each year and he did more than half of them. He only charged me $750 (or $500, I forget) dollars, as I recall (and that was more than 30 years ago).

Don't you think it would be wise to check the economic feasibility BEFORE you spend several thousand dollars conforming to the detailed requirements of the USPTO on the most economically silly plan I have ever heard of?

I tried to think of a comparably economic silly idea / plan one could patent. Best I could come up with was a new way to make bricks. - Basic idea was two take free beach sand (like your "free" lightning) and then mix it with a moderate fast glue (with a cost like your capacitors) and then with my patented super sonic air gun, shoot the moist sand particles, one at a time, into a brick shaped steel form which had hinges so the firm brick could be removed the next day (sort of like you waiting several weeks for the next lightning strike).

Woops, I should not have told you the details of this new brick making method. - You may beat me to the patent office as you believe one should patent first and then do the economic analysis AFTER the patent is issued.

Benny your have more than a dozen carts before one horse.

PS
It is also wise to do a patent search before spending the money on a patent application. I do not know about now, but 30 years ago, you could do that yourself. I did as I worked in Maryland, not far from the USPTO. It was a fascinating couple of afternoons. My patient relates to solar energy use. One patent I found in that field was for an airplane with cylindrical lens glass wings. The inventor hope to make a fortune selling such planes to the army - On sunny days, he suggested they could fly over the enemy's trenches and at least blind the soldiers if not set them on fire. Yes you may be able to get a patent, but I assure you no one will buy it from you and you will find it totally useless to try to use yourself.
 
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Perhaps you do not know that it will cost you at least $3000 to get a patent. I have 10 patents, but only paid for one at less than half the normal cost. (My employer paid for the 9 others and owns them.) My cost was low because I was able to get a friend in my employer's patent office to help with the drawings.

I have had a couple of courses in engineering drawing with one afternoon lab each week when at Cornell so am quite skilled in this area, but would never try to make drawings as the patent office requires. For example, they must be done with India ink. The width of the lines is specified and several different widths are required as the width does indicate information also. Patent drawings are a highly specialized profession. Only a fool would attempt to do his own.

Maybe you haven't heard, Billy, but patent applications can now be done ELECTRONICALLY, which means you shouldn't be buying any stock in companies that make India ink.

http://www.uspto.gov/patents/process/file/efs/index.jsp




Maybe you haven't heard this, either, but patent attorneys and agents aren't legally required when submitting an application.
 
Billy, please read post #229, which I left just for your benefit.
I sure will, soon after you reply to post 153. It explains how you came to be so ignorant about the physics of electrical energy storage. (It has nothing to do with how silly your idea is economically.)
 
Billy, I haven't explained my concepts very well, and I'm hanging my head in shame for that, because I earned good grades in my English classes.

Physics continues to be an interesting subject for me to study, especially now that I've seen the patent office website, now that I've searched the applicable class and subclass, and now that I've satisfied myself that nobody (I said NOBODY) has ever been able to generate a single volt of electricity, using lightning as his sole power source.

There just aren't any patents on storing that much juice, no matter how you measure it.



Oh, and Billy, from now on, I'm going to assume that you HAVE read post #229, and will not ask for comment on economic matters unless I bring them up myself.

Benny's Goals:
1. Patent
2. Profit

Notice the alliteration?
 
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Maybe you haven't heard, Billy, but patent applications can now be done ELECTRONICALLY, ...
That is nice to know. I have not filed for more than 30 years. Perhaps the drawing requirements are less rigid now too? Or perhaps electronic filing is limited to patents that do not need drawings?

I did use twice the USPTO's $10 disclosure service about a decade ago, but think it is no longer offered. Instead of the well-sealed, self-addressed, registered letter one could used to prove the date of conception, they would keep your letter with disclosure, un-opened for a year (then destroy it). They gave you a reference number to that holding which if you did submit an application within the year would attach that earlier disclosure to your application, permanently preserving your disclosed conception date.

I did the economic analysis and concluded it was not worth filing on both those ideas, so my disclosure letters have been destroyed.

Maybe you haven't heard this, either, but patent attorneys and agents aren't legally required when submitting an application.
AFAIK, they never were.
 
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When submitting a patent application electronically, drawings most definitely can be included. The patent office only allows a few document formats to be included when making an online application, but this strict requirement does include the PDF format.

I have some software that can compose and edit circuit diagrams, and another piece of software that can convert any of these electronic drawings into PDF. I've also seen the requirements for drawings and other documents that are part of any patent application, and I'm confident that my application won't be rejected because my drawings don't meet their requirements.
 
I'm confident that my application won't be rejected because my drawings don't meet their requirements.

I'm really slipping. A double-negative? Shame on me for even thinking that horrible use of the English language.

I meant to say that I'm confident that my application WILL be approved.
 
I tried to think of a comparably economic silly idea / plan one could patent. Best I could come up with was a new way to make bricks. - Basic idea was two take free beach sand (like your "free" lightning) and then mix it with a moderate fast glue (with a cost like your capacitors) and then with my patented super sonic air gun, shoot the moist sand particles, one at a time, into a brick shaped steel form which had hinges so the firm brick could be removed the next day (sort of like you waiting several weeks for the next lightning strike).

I thought of an large hydraulic back-hoe excavator that uses a teaspoon as a bucket. While you could get a patent for the idea. Using a $100,000 piece of heavy equipment to move a teaspoon of dirt at a time is just silly.
 
... I'm confident that my application WILL be approved.
I think most applications, that are original, are approved. Many have an entirely wrong idea about what a patent does. It permits you to stop others from exploiting your idea. 99+ percent of patents do not have that problem. They have the problem that no one wants to use the patent. More than 99.9+ percent of patents expire before the inventor ever collects back his cost of obtaining the patent. By far the majority of patents are owned by commercial firms and taken out to avoid paying an independent inventor for some process they MAY decide to use later. Most are never used by anyone.

Your's will surely be in this group, due to its silly economics, and probably because it will not even collect significant energy - the lighting stoke is of very short duration and the structure of dividing wires you mention will have sufficient inductance to limit the flow of current into your capacitors. The current in an inductor cannot change instantly and it was zero just before the lightning bolt hits.
 
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Your [patent] will surely be in this group [that never becomes profitable], due to its silly economics, and probably because it will not even collect significant energy - the lighting stoke is of very short duration and the structure of dividing wires you mention will have sufficient inductance to limit the flow of current into your capacitors. The current in an inductor cannot change instantly and it was zero just before the lightning bolt hits.

You keep talking about "structural inductance", but you never show any evidence of it. There are no coils in my collection and storage equipment, aside from the ones that are built into the interior structure of most capacitors.

As for the economics of my invention, as I've said repeatedly, this will be examined in detail AFTER I RECEIVE MY PATENT.

Put up or shut up, Billy.
 
Using a $100,000 piece of heavy equipment to move a teaspoon of dirt at a time is just silly.

Electricity could cost more when I get my patent than it does now, and companies that produce hydrogen and oxygen could charge more for it, too.

Economics can change dramatically in two years. Does anyone remember what the Dow Jones Industrial Average was two years ago today?
 
You keep talking about "structural inductance", but you never show any evidence of it ...
It is well known physics and the inductance of ANY current path can be calculated.

Basically inductors store energy in the magnetic field which all net currents make, even currents flowing in straight wires, which happen to be the most simple geometry to calculate for.

I can not be held responsible for your ignorance about inductance - at least you now you do recognize that it exist, which is some progress from your prior POV that voltage could drop only across capacitors and resisters. I gather you still falsely think inductance is only associated with coils.

Do you recall that some of the photos of capacitors had more than one output terminal - that is to help lower the inductance of the capacitor. In a footnote of an earlier post, I noted that one way capacitors and inductors differ is that two identical Cs in parallel make 2C of capacitance but two parallel Ls make L/2 inductance (assuming their "mutual inductance" is small, but that is too complex a detail for you now.) That is why several times I have told you to use straps, not wires, to hook up your capacitors and as current dividers. (Strap are sort of like many wires in parallel and thus a strap has significantly lower inductance than a single straight wire, but of course will cost more.)

BTW you will pay more for low inductance capacitors. I also told you how you can measure the inductance of a capacitor by noting the "ringing frequency" when it is shorted out by a short strap.

BTW Benny, if you have two parallel wires not very far apart, each carrying 100,000 amperes in the same direction there will be a huge attractive force between them. It may even disconnect or break them.
 
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Even if somebody reads every post on this board and tries to patent a large-scale capacitor bank, like the kind that I've described, my circuit diagrams include a refinement that I haven't told anyone about, and the patent laws allow for somebody to patent something that merely improves upon someone else's patent.

I'm getting a patent whether Billy wants me to or not.

After that, I'll examine the economics of electricity prices, hydrogen prices, capacitor prices, labor costs, other costs, and make further decisions at that time.

Benny
 
But why wait until after you get a patent? A few minutes of googling and a calculator could at least give a ball park figure on cost.
 
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