Can Science Answer Moral Questions?

"Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; Our meddling intellect Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:-- We murder to dissect"

No science cannot answer moral questions.

Sam Harris says: science can get us what we value. Thats not science. Science is not about values. Its about how, not why.
 
No, science cannot answer moral questions. It can aid in the application of moral values - determining likely consequences, for example - but other than that, I can't see how.

SAM Harris, by the way, argues that pre-emptive torture is moral. He also argues that beliefs should be treated as actions, and so therefore if 'we' believe that Islam - his example - advocates violence, we can treat Muslims AS IF they have acted violently.

He's really a pretty reprehensible creature. The argument he makes takes about 100 pages. If you want to present something morally reprehensible, make sure to seem rational and take a good deal of pages to get the argument across.
 
Can science answer moral questions?
I suppose if we smashed two philosophers together at high velocity we'd get at least the beginnings of an answer.
 
Can science answer moral questions?
I suppose if we smashed two philosophers together at high velocity we'd get at least the beginnings of an answer.
Someone recently force you to read Heidegger or Kant or something?
 
Science is not about values. Its about how, not why.
Technology and engineering about about the "how." Science is about the "why," with the stipulation that you have to back up your answer with empirical evidence and logic.
 
Technology and engineering about about the "how." Science is about the "why," with the stipulation that you have to back up your answer with empirical evidence and logic.

Science is a description of process, not about the reasons for the process. You can explain the ways and means by which natural processes occur but you cannot assign a value to them.

He's really a pretty reprehensible creature.

Is that a scientific observation?
 
SAM Harris, by the way, argues that pre-emptive torture is moral.
No, he doesn't. Harris argues that it's hypocritical and illogical to be willing to accept civilian "collateral damage" in the name of stopping terrorism, but not be willing to torture a known terrorist in the name of stopping terrorism. He has clearly stated that he does not support torture and that he hopes torture remains illegal. He simply pointed out that killing people is generally considered worse than torturing people, and doing bad things to innocent people is generally considered worse than doing bad things to bad people. So if you're willing to kill innocent people to further your goal (for example, by destroying an entire building full of people with a smart bomb in order to kill a handful of terrorists inside), then logically you should be willing to torture guilty terrorists to further that same goal, since torturing a terrorist isn't as bad as killing an innocent person. His intention was to make people realize how hypocritical their ethical standards are, not convince people that torture is moral.

Of course, this didn't stop lots people who already didn't like him (even though they don't actually read what he writes) from misconstruing his comments and going nuts with the whole "Sam Harris wants to torture people!" thing. These are typically the sort of people who prefer to read what critical commentators say about a particular book or topic, rather than actually reading the book or learning about the topic. Because, hey, why bother actually reading what someone writes and trying to understand it before judging it? After all, since you don't like him, you already know he's probably wrong. Actually reading what he wrote before forming an opinion would only waste valuable time, right? It's so much easier to just go by what some random critic claimed Harris said. Then you don't have to do all that tedious reading and thinking, and there's no danger of having to admit that a guy whose ideas you already hate might actually have a point about something.
He's really a pretty reprehensible creature. The argument he makes takes about 100 pages. If you want to present something morally reprehensible, make sure to seem rational and take a good deal of pages to get the argument across.
Based on what you've said so far, I am very skeptical that you have actually read 100 pages of Harris's writing.
 
Science is a description of process, not about the reasons for the process.
So if I ask "Why do black people get sickle cell anemia but white people don't," and science provides an answer involving genetics, malaria, and natural selection, you're saying that science hasn't answered the question of "why"? Because it seems to me that it has...
 
No, science answer the how - i.e. what is the mechanism by which...?
It may then provide THAT answer but leaves "Well WHY do they have that susceptibility and not other people".
 
So if I ask "Why do black people get sickle cell anemia but white people don't," and science provides an answer involving genetics, malaria, and natural selection, you're saying that science hasn't answered the question of "why"? Because it seems to me that it has...

In this context how and why are interchangeable.

I keep six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew);
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.
 
In this context how and why are interchangeable.
Not really.
How is asking for an explanation of the mechanism.
Why asks for the underlying reason.
Whatever answers we get on the mechanism will never provide the reason.
What you mean is that in this case "why" is used (incorrectly) in place of "how".
Simply because whatever answer science gives, the result can still be "Yes, but why...?"
 
I suppose if we smashed two philosophers together at high velocity we'd get at least the beginnings of an answer.

It's a fair cop.




You can explain the ways and means by which natural processes occur but you cannot assign a value to them.


Well said SAM, and quite correct.

Ethics is a normative discipline; 'science' is not.
 
No, he doesn't. Harris argues that it's hypocritical and illogical to be willing to accept civilian "collateral damage" in the name of stopping terrorism, but not be willing to torture a known terrorist in the name of stopping terrorism. He has clearly stated that he does not support torture and that he hopes torture remains illegal. He simply pointed out that killing people is generally considered worse than torturing people, and doing bad things to innocent people is generally considered worse than doing bad things to bad people. So if you're willing to kill innocent people to further your goal (for example, by destroying an entire building full of people with a smart bomb in order to kill a handful of terrorists inside), then logically you should be willing to torture guilty terrorists to further that same goal, since torturing a terrorist isn't as bad as killing an innocent person. His intention was to make people realize how hypocritical their ethical standards are, not convince people that torture is moral.

Of course, this didn't stop lots people who already didn't like him (even though they don't actually read what he writes) from misconstruing his comments and going nuts with the whole "Sam Harris wants to torture people!" thing. These are typically the sort of people who prefer to read what critical commentators say about a particular book or topic, rather than actually reading the book or learning about the topic. Because, hey, why bother actually reading what someone writes and trying to understand it before judging it? After all, since you don't like him, you already know he's probably wrong. Actually reading what he wrote before forming an opinion would only waste valuable time, right? It's so much easier to just go by what some random critic claimed Harris said. Then you don't have to do all that tedious reading and thinking, and there's no danger of having to admit that a guy whose ideas you already hate might actually have a point about something.

Based on what you've said so far, I am very skeptical that you have actually read 100 pages of Harris's writing.

LOL! Its what you could call 'shallow' reading. For she is kind:p
 
No, science answer the how - i.e. what is the mechanism by which...?
It may then provide THAT answer but leaves "Well WHY do they have that susceptibility and not other people".
So if science says that the answer to the question of "Why do black people get sickle cell anemia but white people don't?" is "Because sickle cell anemia provides an immunity to malaria, which was common in Africa but uncommon in Europe," that science hasn't answered the question of "WHY do they have that susceptibility and not other people"? Because again, it seems to me that science has answered the question.

If you don't think science has answered the "why" of the question, then I guess I would ask you to explain exactly what you mean by "why," because so far as I can tell the question has been answered.
How is asking for an explanation of the mechanism.
Why asks for the underlying reason.
So again, what exactly do you mean here? Why did Bob get AIDS but Fred didn't? Science says it's because Bob has unprotected sex with a person who was HIV positive, while Fred didn't. What more "underlying reason" is there?
 
Science is based on reason; morality is based on emotion. So science can't answer moral questions any better than morality can answer scientific questions.

Nonetheless, there is a degree of synergy where they overlap. Science can tell us that division of labor and economy of scale increase the productivity of our effort. This helps us balance the morality of our instinct to be suspicious of people outside our tribe against the morality of our instinct to provide for our families: If we join forces with a neighboring tribe we'll have a more prosperous economy; an economy driven by surplus rather than scarcity will mitigate the reason to be suspicious of strangers, since we're not competing for survival.

Since I've given my answer to the question in the O.P., I'll "leave it as an exercise for the readers" to devise a reverse example in which morality can help advance science. ;)
 
No, he doesn't. Harris argues that it's hypocritical and illogical to be willing to accept civilian "collateral damage" in the name of stopping terrorism, but not be willing to torture a known terrorist in the name of stopping terrorism. He has clearly stated that he does not support torture and that he hopes torture remains illegal.
Sorry, but he does support torture and his book makes this clear.

He simply pointed out that killing people is generally considered worse than torturing people, and doing bad things to innocent people is generally considered worse than doing bad things to bad people. So if you're willing to kill innocent people to further your goal (for example, by destroying an entire building full of people with a smart bomb in order to kill a handful of terrorists inside), then logically you should be willing to torture guilty terrorists to further that same goal, since torturing a terrorist isn't as bad as killing an innocent person. His intention was to make people realize how hypocritical their ethical standards are, not convince people that torture is moral.
Again, that is not what he was doing. He spend many pages developing the argument and it was not simply to point out people's hypocrisy, that would be a waste of paper in a book like his. It might make sense in a philosophy book, showing how people do not think clearly, but his book was definitely as suggestion about what he considered both moral and necessary. Further since he supports just wars, if his own argument is correct, then he supports torture. His own logic holds for him.

Of course, this didn't stop lots people who already didn't like him (even though they don't actually read what he writes) from misconstruing his comments and going nuts with the whole "Sam Harris wants to torture people!" thing.
I read his book carefully. I had to. I ended up in a debate on the topic on his website forum and had to back it up with quotes from his book. After a while those who disagreed realized they had not read his work carefully.

The rest of you post is hallucinations about me or whomever it is you are thinking about.

Based on what you've said so far, I am very skeptical that you have actually read 100 pages of Harris's writing.
Oh, but you are wrong. Have you read End of Faith?

I no longer have a copy of his book, but here is a column he wrote IN DEFENSE OF TORTURE.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

If you have read End of Faith, then you know that he wants us to equate beliefs with actions. He spends many, many pages arguing that because beliefs lead to actions, we can, morally, treat people with certain beliefs as if they have performed those actions. Couple his notions of the morality of torture and you get a very ugly picture.

Notice he refers, at the end of the above article, to torturing a certain class of criminal suspects.

My emphasis. Suspects.

Essentially he is a taking a moral stance that goes against American law and fundamentally.

Here's one quote I saved in my computer....
The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people.

Note: this comes up during an argument in favor of torture. Here he is advocating killing people for their beliefs.

So let's look at what he is saying. He is saying that collateral damage in a war, including killing, is worse than torture. He than says that some beliefs are so bad that killing people for these beliefs is moral. IOW we can treat beliefs as actions and treat people as if they have acted on these beliefs. If torture is not as bad as killing - as he says in his argument - then torture for certain beliefs is also possible. Especially given that he think torture is OK for use on suspects.

And by the way I never said Sam Harris liked torture. Which is how you referred to my position. I said he argued for preemptive torture. The above quote makes it absolutely clear he is in favor of pre-emptive killing. IOW he thinks it can be moral to kill you because your beliefs might lead to you doing something. And note: The End of Faith repeatedly uses Muslims as the example of people who believe bad things.
 
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Since I've given my answer to the question in the O.P., I'll "leave it as an exercise for the readers" to devise a reverse example in which morality can help advance science. ;)
If you think it is moral to carefully investigate the nature of things rather than guessing. (but I am just playing, I agree with what you've said in the thread.)
 
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