Can Muslims Not Talk About 'Spirit'?

Sufi

Registered Senior Member
Unfortunately this theme is yet far beyond the grasp of common people, and it is abused by some ignorant groups who dare to accuse others of making statements about something, the Spirit, that was not recognized even by Hazrat Mohammed aleyhessalaam, saying 'how can you pretend to know about spirit and be a Muslim if the Prophet -peace be upon him- didn't.

Yet, the verse in the Koran (Al-Isra -The Journey by Night) 7:85: “They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: Little indeed is the knowledge communicated to you about the spirit” was not addressed to the people who accepted Islam but rather to the Jews.

Besides, the great Islamic scholar (alim) and saint (Wali), Imam Ghazali has this to say about the “Spirit” (ruh) in the section: Rubu-l Ibadat of the first volume of his book entitled “The Revival of Religious Sciences” (Ihya-u Ulumid Din):

Never should someone think that RasulAllah Excellency did not know the truth (haqiqat) about the Spirit (ruh)! Now, he who does not know his Spirit cannot know himself; and how then could someone, know his Lord if he can not know himself? Not only does RasulAllah know the reality of the spirit, but also many saints (awliyah) and scholars (ulama) know it as well!

--Taken from bestselling Turkish Sufi Author Seyed Ahmed Hulusi's book "Mohammed's Allah" at www.ahmedbaki.com
 
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Bio-electrical energy-something is still material, Sufi. What is spirit/soul ? :m:
 
everneo said:
Bio-electrical energy-something is still material, Sufi. What is spirit/soul ? :m:

Anything that is perceived is the material of its own level. Spiritual world will be our material world when we get access into there. Because we will be perceiving the things there as our concrete. Same as when we are dreaming, our dreamworld becomes our concrete world that we touch and smell.

Our spirits are our hologram-like bodies produced by our brains since the 120th day of our being in mothers womb. It is a wave-like substance of which frequency is unknown to us.
 
Sufi said:
Our spirits are our hologram-like bodies produced by our brains since the 120th day of our being in mothers womb. It is a wave-like substance of which frequency is unknown to us.
Where you got the idea that brain produces spirit ? (if you don't mean it is a delusion :D )

Pre-existance of soul(s)

In Quran, the verse 40:11, indicates the soul exist before earthly-birth.

"They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?" (40:11)
The mentioning of two deaths and two lives in 40:11 may cause some interpreters to somehow connect the Qur'anic teachings to the concept of multiple births, however on closer examination we realise that the opposite is true.

The truth of the matter is that this very verse serves as another solid proof against any such theory. 40:11 traces the progress of our course from the feud in the Heavenly Society (38:69) to the Day of Judgement. We made a covenant with God (5:7) and then we were put to death. That was our First death. The fact that we were all living in a previous life before being brought to earth is well confirmed in the Qur'an.


- http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_reincarnation.htm

Quran confirms, our souls pre-exist before birth !
 
everneo said:
... our souls pre-exist before birth !

On this occasion, I would like to clarify a significant misunderstanding...

“Were human spirits created somewhere in the past and then are they sent down to earth one by one?” Does the “Deen (Religion)” give that information?

Certainly not!

Human spirits were not created in the past, and they are not being sent down to the earth into physical bodies periodically, one after another. On the contrary, each spirit is constructed by the brain of each individual on the 120th day in mother's womb with an angelic influence that manifests as the power of “ALLAH” from within the essence of an embryo.

The Chapter of Heights (Sura A'raaf) in the Koran gives us the following information in the sign 172:

“And when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, saying:

-Am I not your Lord? (A-lastu bi-Rabbikum?)

They said: Yes, verily. We testify. That was lest you should say at the Day of Judgment: Lo! of this we were unaware!”

By reason of failing to discern the essential fact that is cited in this sign, some twisted translations and completely unrelated renderings have been suggested for it; and having been adorned with many fallacious stories, those misinterpretations have finally reached to our day as a common baseless acceptance...

Briefly mentioning today’s mistaken and groundless common acceptance: “ALLAH created the spirits of all possible people to be born in this world collectively in a different location and asked them there, “—Am I not your Lord?” And people's spirits gave answer there as it were, saying, “—Yes, you are our Lord!..”

What's more, it is assumed that those spirits descend one after another from there to earth and enter into physical bodies during their growth in mothers' wombs, afterwards; and they also go back from there to that realm later again.

Furthermore, in the opinion of some inconsiderate and narrow minded people with a lack of deep and comprehensive information, those spirits come back to the world from there over again in order to reach perfection. And, they call that a “reincarnation” implying a return to this world by reentering into a different physical body.

An additional story is also invented under the name “bezmi elest” in association with such a misunderstanding. Supposedly, those who met and felt affectionate with each other there, also met here in this world; those who used to love each other there also loved each other here; and those who disliked each other there disliked each other here as well!..
Now, let us first sum up the reality about that matter and then offer our evidence respectively.

Allahualem, here is the meaning that the mentioned sign implies:

According to the rule (hukm) that “ALLAH created human on the Islamic nature,” every individual is born after the genetic information transferred from father with a program of “Islamic constitution” (fitrat), while someone was in a form of sperm yet at that time; and it then passes through the following stages...

The statement “from their loins, their seed, (zurriyyah)” indicates and emphasizes the availability of that information of “Islamic disposition” (fitrat) transferred genetically through sperm. That is, human beings have been endowed with a natural faculty of being aware of their Lord, while yet in a form of sperm —when their seed was brought from their loins.

In point of fact, the embryo endowed with that genetic information, begins constructing its afterlife realm body known as “SPIRIT” on the 120th day in mother's womb, in form of frequencies produced by brain, through the agency of an angelic influence upcoming dimensionally from within its own core, its essence... And the “spirit” stores all the information produced in the form of waves as the outcome of all mental functions. Therefore, the theory that a spirit consciously came from a different location and entered into a physical body is completely invalid.

If we seriously consider the above verses of the Koran, which is tried to be imposed as an indication of existence of a “separate world of spirits” created prior to the earthly lifetimes at a different location, we realize that nothing but “the seeds from the loins of Children of Adam” is mentioned of there. The seeds and “loins” are issues of our physical world dimension we are currently in, not of the spiritual realm. Water of loins is semen and is in consideration in the world of sperm.

You might also find more information confirming our explanations in the 4th volume, page 2324 of the Koran Interpretation written in Turkish by Hamdi Yazir of Elmali. You may see also a contemporary Interpretation of the Glorious Koran by Mr. Suleyman Ates.

Imam Ghazali tells the following in his book “Rawdhatu-t Taalebiin” about this matter:

“... Because, the spirit of our Master RasulAllah had not been created and did not exist before he was given birth by his mother!”

Since a spirits is not something entering a body from outside, its reentrance into other bodies over and over again repeatedly after its detachment from one through death, is also impossible.

Read more online for free from Bestselling Turkish Sufi Author Ahmed Hulusi's book: UP TO DATE UNDERSTANDING OF ISLAM.
 
Sufi,

A few simple questions -

1 What is the purpose of a human spirit?
2 Is such a spirit material or immaterial?
3 What mechanism in the embryonic brain produces a spirt?
4 How can we detect a spirit so we can prove they exist?

Kat
 
Katazia said:
Sufi,

1 What is the purpose of a human spirit?

The same as that of a human body. Think the other way around! Once we exist, our beings are eternal. We are having human experience now with human bodies and are just calling our next vehicle as spirit from our current perspective.

2 Is such a spirit material or immaterial?

Is our material world material or immaterial?..

The whole universe is an ocean of waves. When you look through corresponding instruments, right there appears your material according to the capacity of your senses and the rest is your immaterial. As the capacty of your perceptive intruments change, so does the objects in your world as well as the material.

3 What mechanism in the embryonic brain produces a spirt?

What mechanism decides which cell is going to be which organ in an embrio?

4 How can we detect a spirit so we can prove they exist?

No proof from outside. You must see it for yourself. You have a spritual body now along with your physical body. Though certain practices such as 'zhikr', praying duas, fasting, or by being generous, grateful, and by lovig and serving people with content, you may empower your spiritual energy and might possibly experience its detachment from your physical body for a brief period of time.

Spiritul practices are not to please a god out there, but to serve us as empowering agents for spritual energy to enjoy the freedom from worldly ties.
 
Sufi,

1 What is the purpose of a human spirit?

The same as that of a human body.

Then that seems to imply that one of them is redundant?

Once we exist, our beings are eternal.

How would that be possible? What energy keeps our spirit alive? But that still doesn’t explain purpose.

We are having human experience now with human bodies

OK and that is just fine and implies we have no need of a spirit.

and are just calling our next vehicle as spirit from our current perspective.

I can’t understand what you mean here.

2 Is such a spirit material or immaterial?

Is our material world material or immaterial?..

We only know of the material and no reason to believe there is anything else.

The whole universe is an ocean of waves.

Are you referring to string theory, or is this just poetry?

When you look through corresponding instruments, right there appears your material according to the capacity of your senses and the rest is your immaterial.

What rest? Everything we see and detect is material. We cannot know of anything with senses that we do not possess, it also follows that you cannot know of anything else either if you are relying on senses you also do not have.

As the capacty of your perceptive intruments change, so does the objects in your world as well as the material.

OK, as we are able to look further then we discover more about the universe. We have been doing this for some time now and we have never detected anything other than material. I don’t see that you are making a point here.

Neuroscience has yet to detect anything that could be described as a spirit, and neither does it appear necessary that one exists in order to explain human life.

You need to do more than simply assert that such a state/entity exists, you need to show how and why.

3 What mechanism in the embryonic brain produces a spirt?

What mechanism decides which cell is going to be which organ in an embrio?

We do not yet understand how the patterns in DNA are interpreted by cellular growth into the various organs. However we do know for certain that the various organs do exist. What you are saying by comparison is that you also do not know how your claim can be substantiated. The difference of course is that we do not know that spirits exist and do not have any any reason to believe that the brain has any processes that can create spirits, despite your assertion.

4 How can we detect a spirit so we can prove they exist?

No proof from outside. You must see it for yourself.

I don’t care whether the proof is inside or outside just any proof will be fine.

You have a spritual body now along with your physical body.

So you have already asserted but that isn’t a proof.

Though certain practices such as 'zhikr', praying duas, fasting, or by being generous, grateful, and by lovig and serving people with content, you may empower your spiritual energy and might possibly experience its detachment from your physical body for a brief period of time.

That is really rather vague. It doesn’t look as though you can offer any real evidence that spirits exist.

Spiritul practices are not to please a god out there, but to serve us as empowering agents for spritual energy to enjoy the freedom from worldly ties.
I thought you said there are no gods. And what is wrong with worldly ties that you feel the need to be free of them?

Kat
 
Dear Kat,

This was all I can do about your questions :(

I can only add one thing if I can: 'Belief', if you use it, is only a tool to take you beyond the detection of the five senses. If you do not use it, you cannot experience its benefits and cannot know what it brings.

And I believe, it is in our genes, that some will have the faculty of believing, some will not!
 
Sufi,

'Belief', if you use it, is only a tool to take you beyond the detection of the five senses.
I understand your position but you are making a serious error.

I believe many things but I am only interested in things that are true, to do otherwise leads to chaos and self-delusion. The only way to “know” that something is true is through evidence and proofs. From this we can see there are two types of belief. Rational belief uses evidence to form the basis for the belief, and irrational belief (usually referred to as faith) where no evidence is used.

All you are doing just like every religionist before you and from throughout time is using your imagination to create a scenario that “feels” right and seems “believable”, but none of it is based on truth. I’d love to think that the things I imagine are really actual things viewed through a sixth sense, but that would be childish and nonsense.

There are some “soft” aspects to Sufism that I can see as attractive but then I find Buddhism equally attractive for similar reasons. But neither have any basis is reality, i.e. both have only imagination as their basis.

If you do not use it, you cannot experience its benefits and cannot know what it brings.
To use faith as you prescribe only brings false hopes and a wasted life living in a dream world. But there are indeed some benefits to life in a self-delusion. It enables many people to avoid the stress and struggle of real life. It gives many a purpose to life where they are too weak-minded to generate their own.

And I believe, it is in our genes, that some will have the faculty of believing, some will not!
Yes unfortunately I suspect this is true. It is an inability to think critically, to be able to see when something might be true instead of false, and typically a property of low intelligence.

Unfortunately it is the weak-minded and the low intelligent members of our species that seem to breed the most and hence spread these defective genes to a rapidly increasing world population. The end result could well be the extinction of the human race. But I hope not since the 14% of us who are free of religion, and of which many form the bulk of the scientific community, are the ones that are most likely to save the human race from its own idiocies such as your irrational and erroneous religious beliefs.

Kat
 
Kat,

Give yourself time! There may come a day when you might believe, based on your personal proof and evidence, in what is unbelievable to you currently, if it is in your genes to have faith.
 
And I hope you do not expect anyone to say "no I haven't seen" for what is already seen to him just because you still keep seeking for a proof or evidence about it. :D
 
Sufi,

Give yourself time! There may come a day when you might believe, based on your personal proof and evidence, in what is unbelievable to you currently, if it is in your genes to have faith.
There was a time when I was prone to irrational beliefs but through real life experiences I have learnt the hard way that such deficient thinking is not productive and never leads to truth.

I recommend you take some training in critical thinking and logic so that you can significantly offset your defective genes.

And I hope you do not expect anyone to say "no I haven't seen" for what is already seen to him just because you still keep seeking for a proof or evidence about it.
Anyone who is rational would always seek independent verification through evidence and proofs since the human brain can suffer from delusions. If you think you have seen something extraordinary but have no independent evidence how do you distinguish your perception with the more credible explanation that you are deluded?

Kat
 
Katazia said:
There was a time when I was prone to irrational beliefs but through real life experiences I have learnt the hard way that such deficient thinking is not productive and never leads to truth.
Kat

By this, do you mean, in your words, you took some training in critical thinking and logic so you could significantly offset your defective genes and become rational who seek independent verification through evidence and proofs?

Since you said human brain can suffer from delusions, sure you did not write about offsetting defective genes without your evidence and proof!

Sorry for not congratulating! :D

who are free of religion, and of which many form the bulk of the scientific community, are the ones that are most likely to save the human race from its own idiocies such as your irrational and erroneous religious beliefs.

So you cannot stand the genes of individual human beings, but try to save the whole human race.
 
Sufi,

By this, do you mean, in your words, you took some training in critical thinking and logic so you could significantly offset your defective genes and become rational who seek independent verification through evidence and proofs?
Nah, I was subjected to daily religious propaganda and conditioning when I was young. I was always naturally analytical. So once I was free of the offending religious influences I was OK, i.e. my genes that make me rational were able to assert themselves.

Since you said human brain can suffer from delusions, sure you did not write about offsetting defective genes without your evidence and proof!
So while I talked about the two types of belief, rational and irrational, there is also a third alternative – absence of belief. This is where evidence is absent so no conclusion can be made for or against a claim. The rational path is to admit that the answer is unknown.

So you cannot stand the genes of individual human beings, but try to save the whole human race.
As a species we tend to let the majority opinion have control rather than choose a correct path; that, to my mind appears to be an idiotic approach. My survival is best served if the species survives since I am for the moment significantly dependent on others.

Kat
 
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