Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?

[wynn]

Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?


A poster elsewhere said:

this is where the line between religion and God gets crossed..

religion says 'this is who God is, follow us or go to Hell..'
God says 'follow me, not them'

- But without referring to an existing theistic tradition, how can anyone know what God says, and who "Me" and who "them" is?

 

[Lori_7]

have you ever heard of the spirit? have you ever read the bible? did jesus follow men or the spirit? did noah follow men or the spirit? did moses follow men or the spirit? the bible contains account after account after account after account of those who are led not by men, but by the spirit, often times against the will of men, and even against their own will. john was in exile and isolation on an island when he was "in the spirit" and received revelation. noah wasn't commissioned by a congregation of religious people to build an ark. and i was alone in my own living room when the spirit came to me with revelation as well.

how can you know what god says when you are not even remotely concerned about listening to god because you're so damned preoccupied with when men say and think?

 

[Lori_7]

signal, what do you make of this scripture?

matthew ch 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[Lori_7]

and what do you make of the conversation jesus had with nicodemus?

1 Now there came a man of the Pharisees whose name was Nicodemus, a member of the council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could do the miraculous signs that you do unless God were with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus replied, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I tell you the solemn truth, we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I have told you people about earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

 

[wynn]

have you ever heard of the spirit? have you ever read the bible? did jesus follow men or the spirit? did noah follow men or the spirit? did moses follow men or the spirit? the bible contains account after account after account after account of those who are led not by men, but by the spirit, often times against the will of men, and even against their own will. john was in exile and isolation on an island when he was "in the spirit" and received revelation. noah wasn't commissioned by a congregation of religious people to build an ark. and i was alone in my own living room when the spirit came to me with revelation as well.

how can you know what god says when you are not even remotely concerned about listening to god because you're so damned preoccupied with when men say and think?

How do you know which is the voice of the "spirit" and which is just your own voice or your own imagination ...

 

[wynn]

signal, what do you make of this scripture?

matthew ch 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

It's simply a series of statements within a closed system, it's a truism.

It doesn't really say anything about how one can be sure one is indeed doing the will of the Father.

 

[Lori_7]

How do you know which is the voice of the "spirit" and which is just your own voice or your own imagination ...

because i don't speak like him, and i wouldn't have said what he said, and i couldn't do for myself what he's done for me.

 

[Lori_7]

It's simply a series of statements within a closed system, it's a truism.

It doesn't really say anything about how one can be sure one is indeed doing the will of the Father.

what it does say is that religion is not the answer but a relationship with god is.

 

[Thoreau]

Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?


A poster elsewhere said:



- But without referring to an existing theistic tradition, how can anyone know what God says, and who "Me" and who "them" is?

This is an interesting question. Unfortunately the answer can be quite complex. As a Deist, I believe in a God. However, my belief in a God is very much unlike most other "believers". I don't believe God controls everything, though I do believe he created everything, or at least set forth the basic laws of pysics for matter to be created. I don't think we just magically appeared one day as humans. I do believe in evolution and I think that the Christian creationist story is a load of ****.

So, coming from that stance, I can say yes. I do think it's possible to understand the ways of God by understanding ourselves and the universe around us. And for those of you who are not familiar with Deism, I would like to clarify to you that we do not have a "tradition" nor do we have scripture. Deism is simply the title for those who have come to the conclusion through their own reasoning, regardless of outside influences, that a higher power does exist.

Is there proof that God exists? Again, it depends on how you perceive it. Some would say yes, that we and the universe in all it's glory are proof. Some would say no, that it doesn't prove anything.

So, in summary, there is really no definite answer. One must first determine for themselves as to if there is or is not a God. Everything thereafter is simply ones own interpretation, based on their previous conclusion.

 

[birch]

Is there proof that God exists? Again, it depends on how you perceive it. Some would say yes, that we and the universe in all it's glory are proof. Some would say no, that it doesn't prove anything.

the first and usual mistake or assumption with most people is the idea that the concept of god is the same with anyone that tries to define it.

most think of god as being a creator of the universe, laws of physics or nature. also, just like you described it as 'glory' as proof.

incidentally, not everyone thinks the concept of god had to be the creator of the universe, the laws of physics or nature either and not everyone sees it as 'glorious'.

so what ends up happening is that anyone can use the label of 'god' and be talking or referring to something else entirely in concept or idea from the next person.

silly oversight, ain't it?

 

[Thoreau]

the first and usual mistake or assumption with most people is the idea that the concept of god is the same with anyone that tries to define it.

most think of god as being a creator of the universe, laws of physics or nature. also, just like you described it as 'glory' as proof.

incidentally, not everyone thinks the concept of god had to be the creator of the universe, the laws of physics or nature either and not everyone sees it as 'glorious'.

so what ends up happening is that anyone can use the label of 'god' and be talking or referring to something else entirely in concept or idea from the next person.

silly oversight, ain't it?

Yes, I completely agree that the very definition of the word and concept of "God" can and does vary. And in clarification, "glory" was more or less a quote. Nature and the laws of physics can be quite the opposite of glorious. I'm not proclaiming here one side or another. I'm simply stating, as you have, that the answer to the OP's question is open to interpretation.

 

[SciWriter]

silly oversight, ain't it?

Yes, and a give-away that these notions have been fabricated.

As for an felt sensations, those are "seconds stories" that but come from the neurological first floor. Introspection alone can't lead to truth; one must ever be informed by science.

 

[Thoreau]

Yes, and a give-away that these notions have been fabricated.

As for an felt sensations, those are "seconds stories" that but come from the neurological first floor. Introspection alone can't lead to truth; one must ever be informed by science.

I agree.

 

[Sarkus]

Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?

Anything experienced can be known in terms of that experience.
The issue would be (and is) in comparing the definition of that personal experience with what others have defined (through either personal experience or through appeals to authority).

E.g. If I have never seen an elephant and see this large grey animal in front of me, I could define it as "elephant".
But it is meaningful only to me as an "elephant" unless there is a comparison.

Therefore I would say that "god" can be known without reference, but it is not until you have that reference that you can know whether your "god" is the same "god" that others have experienced.

Furthermore, without reference it is not possible to know of the objective truth of the matter, only of the objective truth that there was an experience (i.e. the experience is not in question but the interpretation of that experience is).

And it is arguable that even with reference to just tradition it is not possible to "know" god.


Disclaimer: the above is personal opinion only and not to be taken as statement of fact. E.g. "it is..." should be read as "it is my opinion that it is..."

 

[SciWriter]

We are just brains having thoughts, and they pour forth always, unless stopped via meditation. Some are obviously 'forbidden', 'bad', simpletons, or extremely emotional, like 'kill', but we veto those (most of us); however, how many leas obvious cases slip right on through without much or any investigation that are then wrongly taken as gospel? It can be difficult to disregard one's own thoughts, even of desired imaginary realms, but one must become a spectator of one's thoughts, sizing up the first level beliefs at a higher, second level, and without bias toward one's wishes and inclinations.

 

[jmpet]

Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?

Yes- Scientology tried this. You're free to try though.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?

i typed to respond,then deleted..typed something else,then deleted,tried again, then deleted..

anything i type has its exceptions,so i will leave it as Yes we can.

 

[Yazata]

Can God be known without reference to existing theistic tradition?

That assumes that "God" exists, which is begging a huge question.

If God does exist, and if God wants to be known, then presumably God will be known. He has everyone's phone number.

But without referring to an existing theistic tradition, how can anyone know what God says, and who "Me" and who "them" is?

How can we be sure that what the existing theistic traditions tell us God says really has anything to do with what God truly says? (Assuming that God actually exists and says anything.)

There are multiple theistic traditions out there that seem to have God saying contradictory and incompatible things. Each insists that their tradition alone is right and that all the others are sadly (or demonically) wrong, but I don't see any way that we could actually know that.

 

[SciWriter]

Yes, assuming 'God' is the first misstep. Adding further structures upon this goes nowhere.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

That assumes that "God" exists, which is begging a huge question.

If God does exist, and if God wants to be known, then presumably God will be known. He has everyone's phone number.



How can we be sure that what the existing theistic traditions tell us God says really has anything to do with what God truly says? (Assuming that God actually exists and says anything.)

There are multiple theistic traditions out there that seem to have God saying contradictory and incompatible things. Each insists that their tradition alone is right and that all the others are sadly (or demonically) wrong, but I don't see any way that we could actually know that.

God really doesn't need us if you want the cold truth/ He out of his mercy has given us the chance to ascend into eternal beings if we can show him our virtues and worth.

We are just his creations, even though we are amazing beings and wonderful pieces of art. Just like an artist could destroy his statues and paintings god could just be done with us but he isnt un-just in his rulings.

You maybe have not been taught this yet but god does not give every person equal peace of mind on earth. If you do not please him in your acts and life he will put more and more locks upon your hearts and put a blind-fold over your real eye. You think he is weak? god is merciful yes, he is loving yes, he is all knowing and worthy of his own actions. But he is not a push over and he will not let people get away with their evil deeds.


He does conceal himself from who he wills, he does show himself to people who please him. it's not harsh it is true justice manifest. God is karma he controls anythign he wants and lets run free whatever he wills. he hides what he wants to and presents What he wants, When he wants.

Peace.