Brains Brains Brains

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Dr Lou Natic

Unnecessary Surgeon
Registered Senior Member
Well cooked fetus got me thinking about brains and I looked for some information.
I found this site which I think is pretty good:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Home1.html
I hope its not too "basic" or childish for the real scientists here:)
I think its a nice design and easy to navigate around and learn things.

It doesn't really come to any conclusions though.
It turns out brain science isn't as simple as I thought. I guess I was looking for some sort of "ranking" amongst the species but it basically says that answer is inconclusive at this stage.

Larger brains aren't always "smarter" than smaller ones and surprisingly bodysize/brainsize ratios doesn't necassarily give an answer either.
There are alot of factors like cortex folds and density and so on.

Anyway I assume SOME of you might not learn anything from this website but what are your thoughts on the subject?
 
Not really.
I gathered that they were refferring to the amount of neurons packed into each square inch or whatever. I'm not too sure.
They were pretty vague with density.
One things thats interesting is each species neurons are fairly similar, indicating that humans don't have a "we have fancy neurons" explanation to fall back on. The folds add to surface space and that plays a pivotal role(it is assumed).

They did have rankings for different things but they admitted none of them are a hundred percent. For example, if we were to follow brainweight/ bodyweight ratios it would mean mice and small birds are more intelligent than humans. Doesn't seem likely does it.
Dolphins and humans, as expected, topped most of the ranking lists. But there was no definitive ranking. Which is understandable because it is hard to compare completely different animals who's brains have completely different purposes.
A good point was made in there somewhere, a quote from a scientist saying that we have a very faulty system for distinguishing different animals intelligences because we tend to compare them to ourselves. We dismiss any animal that is not on our particular wavelength when it is quite possible they are just as intelligent in a different way.

I found this quote on my searchings from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy;
"Man had always assumed he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much .... the wheel, new york, wars and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons."

I think that sums up the problem with this subject perfectly. Its all about perspectives and opinions.
I guess what I'm saying is looking for a real answer is sort of futile:(
But I still am very interested in finding out what science is indicating in the way of most "powerful" brains.

So far I think humans might JUST have the edge as far as power per milligram or whatever.
But heres a little something; we all know people have 2 lobes, left and right, to our brains, each with their own type of purposes. Dolphins have 4, what aspects of brain activity do you suppose the extra 2 could be dedicated to?
 
I got someone thinking? Now I can die happy!

Successful sentience like us humans is created by very hard to define modules in our brain that have evolve; that allow us to understand our existence, manipulate object in complex ways, and communicate in a complex manner. Whales, elephants and giant squid might have comparable intelligence, sentience and even a complex language but they do not have the physical mechanisms to make use of it like we do (aka hands and thumbs) this is unsuccessful sentience. So were basically talking monkeys with the luck of all the right things going for us (Intelligence, sentience, talking and hands) to crush everything in our wake.
 
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It turns out brain science isn't as simple as I thought.
Click to expand...

::claps::
why thank you.

turns out it wasn't as simple as i thought either. no finishing grad school in two years for me;)
 
So, fetus, you're saying that if dolphins had some better means to interact with their enviroment, they could have become a species with a mental capacity not unlike humans? I think you're correct, because if you think about it, being able to move things into different categories allows us to count them. And being able to draw things allowed for geometry and being able to throw things allowed us to figure out physics and gravity and such. Hey, if dolphins did have such a enviromental interaction means, do you think they would have understood gravity as well as we do? Perhaps by jumping out of the water they could figure it out.
Anyways, I've thrown myself into speculative fiction again. That's interesting, about the extra two lobes. Why would they have a need for four, when two can cover all our bases. Do dolphins have that sonar/radar thing, because perhaps one could be used for that. Ah, I don't know what I'm talking about.:eek:

Gurglo
 
A whole lobe could be dedicated to sonar because we have no idea exactly what dolphin sonar entails. Any attempts by man to trick dolphin sonar have failed. There was even a test where a dolphin was shown a pair of identical twins for a split second, it was then blindfolded and told to distinguish which one was which. It could tell everytime. It must be able to actually see something inside them or something, I don't know.

We DO know it is a far more advanced system than any sonar system we can come up with. We have no idea what its limits are.
Alot of experts theorise dolphins might actually have the ability to send each other complex 3D holographic images.
Now that would be amazing and you could see how such an intricate system could require alot of space.

Then, as MH mentioned, there is the question of the other lobe, I'm not sure anyone knows what it even COULD be for, and then we have to realise that the other 2 lobes probably aren't exactly like ours. Building on all this you can almost begin to imagine how different such an animals perspective of the world would be and yet we can't possibly fathom what it would actually be like.

The amazon river dolphin is almost blind, its eyes can distinguish between the light of day and the dark of night, the rest of the knowledge of its surroundings comes from its sonar system.
When you think about it, the amazon river dolphins universe is in a completely different dimension than ours.

Thats why I've started to think brain comparing is pointless and the phrase "humans are the smartest animals" has no value. Saying anything is smarter than anything doesn't seem like a legit statement anymore because we will always just be saying; "anything(a)" is closer to humans than "anything(b)".

I'd say that humans are the best at being humans and that is all we know.
 
I remember a test on bottle nose dolphins that show they could determine the thickness of a steel plate by millimeters using sonar. I think the 2 extra lobes are for stereoscopic sonar so they can see/hear in 3D! Most of all they can see through things just like ultra sound, to them the aquatic would must look like a x-ray machine.
 
Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
must look like a x-ray machine.
Click to expand...
Sort of, except somehow they can see the outer layer(ie skin) as well as everything else. An X-ray or ultrasound can see bones and other dense things but a dolphin can see everything all at the same time. On a human it could see the skin, the flesh, the fat, the organs the space in the organs the bones etc etc etc.
We as humans find that impossible to picture. We can try by imagining a human cut down the center, now imagine if you could see through everything inside while still being able to see each thing.
Thats what tests indicate they are capable of as well as many other things.

I agree that this would require alot of brain mass but 2 lobes? When you see what is packed into each of our lobes it seems unlikely that 2 lobes would be required for one function(even if it is extremely complex).
Maybe, but I wouldn't think so.
 
I realized that, I couldn’t really think of a proper analogy. :D

The Occipital lobes in us is separated hemispherically: one for each eye. Same thing for the ears (in the Temperal and Parietal lobes), I would theorize that in dolphins because of there need for 3D visual hearing, the hearing centers of their brain evolved to such complexity as to make its own quadrille lobe.
 
Thats a good point. You've convinced me that you are probably right actually.
What do people born blind do with their brains? Would they start working differently?
I ask because I wonder if the amazon river dolphin still has 4 lobes seeing as how its very close to blind. Maybe 2 of its lobes have started shrinking over generations. I don't know.
 
well the "vision" areas of the brain are certainly not used exclusivly for vision. so it's a bit of a misnomer. as with brains, it's never really that simple. so blind people still have things for their occipital lobes to do. there's plenty of work to be done for the brain. though you might seem some slightly different activation in "visual' areas for blind people as opposed to seeing folk. I'm sure it depends on how and when you went blind. if it was from birth and it was due to a problem with your eyes then i would bet that would bring about the greatest difference if there is any.
 
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