Bird's didn't evolve from dinosaurs?

fat_frank

Registered Member
What the hell is this list of lies here about? :eek::

http://eternian.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/bird-evolution/

I was told by my teachers in high school and preschool and college that it's a fact birds were once dinosaurs? Come on who are these creationists knuckleheads always contradicting science and teachers!!!!!!! WE MUST refute these people!!!! WITH SCIENCE! These cretanists haha! they don't CARE about SCIENCE though that's why it's probably not even worth our time to talk to them! Just let them believe lies and destroy themselves and end up in jail as druggies and junkies because of these lies. It's survival of the fittest and they can't adapt to the truth! THEY CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! When will these people accept evolution and evolve? They don't believe in archaeoraptor, archeopteryx, nothing, no evidence convinces them! They are truly dinosaurs!
 
Only in the USA is science held in such low esteem that a significant portion of the population can believe this crap. What a pendulum swing from my day. When the Russians launched Sputnik in 1957, a massive interest in science and math sprang up overnight. Suddenly math majors got dates and the jocks were opening doors for us!

For two decades everybody was familiar with at least the basic principles of science and there was no skepticism toward it. This intellectualism carried over into everything. Even the rock and roll of the early 1970s was cerebral; you couldn't just tap your foot to Rush.

Then in the late 70s the Religious Redneck Retard Revival happened, and all this progress was lost.
 
I took a brief look at the last item in the link (http://www.icr.org/article/feathered-dinosaur-debate-exhibits/)
This is from the Institute for Creation Research's website. The article does a good job of summarising the debate over the interpretation of certain fibers found with several, varied dinosaur fossils. Some researchers see these as protofeathers and so supportive of a dinosaur origin for birds. Others believe they are remnants of the collagen fiber mesh that provides a support fabric for skin.

A dozen paragraphs are devoted to this discussion, with nothing surprising offered up - unless one is unaware that science is based on controversy. Then in the final two paragraphs the author drops a seeming non-sequitur.
"However, the fact that soft tissues have been found in various fossil caches worldwide does not have to be considered as verification that soft tissues can be preserved for millions of years. They do, however, verify that a worldwide watery catastrophe buried and preserved countless creatures just thousands, not millions, of years ago."

Not only does this not follow from what has gone before, but the last sentence is simply untrue. The presence of soft tissues does not verify the global flood. At best they could have written "The preservation of soft tissues is consistent with them being young."

The trick they seem to have tried to pull off is to provide a scholarly - and largely non-controversial - summary in order to establish their credentials as objective scientists. Then they pull a completely unrelated and unsubstantiated statement out of the air and expect their audience to accept it unquestioningly.

Dumb, despicable, dishonest, or all three?
 
Dumb, despicable, dishonest, or all three?
Dishonesty is always despicable in science, regardless of how arguable it may be in other facets of life.

As for "dumb," as a member of a local CSICOP chapter I once attended a debate it hosted between an actual scientist and a so-called creation scientist. The creationist was not stupid.
  • He had carefully gathered a subset of the fossil record that was consistent with his hypothesis. This obviously required reviewing, understanding and setting aside the much greater collection of fossils that falsified it.
  • He quoted from graduate theses at third-rate universities. Since even third-rate universities do not usually accept scientific papers that blatantly endorse supernaturalism because they fail even a third-rate peer review, this obviously required reviewing papers that contained real science, understanding them, and rejecting them.
  • He was a skilled speaker, much more so than the average real scientist. He was able to seize on weak points in his opponent's arguments and even turn some of his own rhetoric against him. This type of disingenuity is a manifestation of high, if subverted, intelligence.
Therefore my conclusion was that the "creation science" movement is a fraud, or at least was 25 years ago when it was fairly young. If they truly believe in a supernatural alternative to evolution, they do not present it. What this speaker presented was a collection of what even he had to understand were lies.
 
Yes, this is what I’ve always said. “Creation science” is the antithesis of the genuine scientific method, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that “creation scientists” are dumb. They are often very clever con artists who know how to manipulate science and people in order to achieve their goal.

For this reason I no longer engage in debate with creationists because it’s not a fair fight. Creationists are not limited by the scientific method; they can cherry pick their evidence and jury rig their analyses to specifically support their pre-determined truth. Scientists, on the other hand, are bound by the scientific method. This can be a big disadvantage because science doesn’t have all the answers. In fact, it has very few answers. Often science simply shrugs its shoulders and says “We just don’t know”. For a religiously leaning person who has no scientific background and is struggling to understand the concepts of evolution, it can be all too seductive to accept creation science with its definitive answers and God-of-the-Gaps reassurance, as opposed to science that presents an incomplete picture of the world.
 
Yes, this is what I’ve always said. “Creation science” is the antithesis of the genuine scientific method, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that “creation scientists” are dumb. They are often very clever con artists who know how to manipulate science and people in order to achieve their goal.

It also underscores their hypocracy. When they knowingly spin the truth and try deceiving people, isn't that the work of "The Father of Lies" ?
 
Not coming from any religious background or creationist ideology, just using my own observations. That sadi, i never understood why people would say that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Having naturally scientific and analytical interest i am sure i sadi the same thing here years ago.
 
Not coming from any religious background or creationist ideology, just using my own observations.
And your "observations" would be supported by...?

That sadi, i never understood why people would say that birds evolved from dinosaurs.
Because that happens to be the case.

Having naturally scientific and analytical interest i am sure i sadi the same thing here years ago.
:rolleyes:
 
Dishonesty is always despicable in science, regardless of how arguable it may be in other facets of life.

As for "dumb," as a member of a local CSICOP chapter I once attended a debate it hosted between an actual scientist and a so-called creation scientist. The creationist was not stupid.
  • He had carefully gathered a subset of the fossil record that was consistent with his hypothesis. This obviously required reviewing, understanding and setting aside the much greater collection of fossils that falsified it.
  • He quoted from graduate theses at third-rate universities. Since even third-rate universities do not usually accept scientific papers that blatantly endorse supernaturalism because they fail even a third-rate peer review, this obviously required reviewing papers that contained real science, understanding them, and rejecting them.
  • He was a skilled speaker, much more so than the average real scientist. He was able to seize on weak points in his opponent's arguments and even turn some of his own rhetoric against him. This type of disingenuity is a manifestation of high, if subverted, intelligence.
Therefore my conclusion was that the "creation science" movement is a fraud, or at least was 25 years ago when it was fairly young. If they truly believe in a supernatural alternative to evolution, they do not present it. What this speaker presented was a collection of what even he had to understand were lies.
Have you considered that your "creation scientist" might have sincerely believed in the creation account despite understanding the science behind evolution? Science has, itself, come up with some bizzare and unbelievable ideas, such as the Boltzmann Brains.

Boltzman pointed out that it's more likely that we're disembodied brains with false memories of a life we never lived than that an entire low entropy universe popped into existence and survived long enough for us to evolve.

And what of the crazy world of quantum mechanics? A new universe is created every time you make a decision? Cats alive and dead at the same time?

I'm not denying science or even evolution, I'm just pointing out that even within the realms of science there's room for plenty of kooky stuff so you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss someone as dishonest just because they don't believe all the same things you do.

I personally see no conflict between religion and science. To me, a God who must often break the laws of nature (laws that he established) displays a striking lack of planning. So I'd expect God to accomplish what he wants to accomplish thru the natural processes of the universe, which would include evolution.

Was it Contact in which God left a message for us in Pi? Kind of a Divine Easter Egg for us to find....
 
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Have you considered that your "creation scientist" might have sincerely believed in the creation account despite understanding the science behind evolution?
Many people believe in divine creation of the universe or even of the first living things while accepting evolution as the origin of humans and other modern lifeforms. The Pope, as a rather notable example, accepts the seven-day fable as a metaphor without forsaking his faith in his god.

But the so-called "creation scientist" who was chosen to represent his community in a public debate didn't merely argue against the evidence for evolution. He misrepresented it. He hid the majority of it and only displayed a small number of fossils in such a way as to appear to support his hypothesis.

That is not sincerity. It is intellectual dishonesty.
Boltzman pointed out that it's more likely that we're disembodied brains with false memories of a life we never lived than that an entire low entropy universe popped into existence and survived long enough for us to evolve.
Boltzman must be an American. He has the typical American befuddlement when confronted with the application of statistics and probability to extremely large numbers. The Second Law says that entropy tends to increase, not that it increases monotonically.

If spacetime is infinite both spatially and temporally, then any event which is not ruled out by the laws of nature--i.e. its probability is greater than zero--can happen; it coud even happen more than once. All the atoms in your sofa really can suddenly all move in the same direction and lift you off the floor. An empty universe really can suddely resolve itself into a large, balanced set of quarks, leptons and bosons, which will then slowly revert back to maximum entropy. Of course that is where we would happen to be sitting because we couldn't have evolved anywhere else in spacetime; our existence is evidence that the probability of everything inside our Hubble radius coming into being is not zero. The infinitely larger remainder of spacetime that is empty does not contain any creatures to send us messages of encouragement, reminding us that our little corner of it is a singularity to be cherished and studied. Boltzman doesn't understand that compared to infinity everything is really small, no matter how big it looks from here.

His hypothesis of multiple disembodied brains with synapses full of delicately crafted memories is no more impossible than the Big Bang, but it does seem to be a significantly more singular singularity.
And what of the crazy world of quantum mechanics? A new universe is created every time you make a decision? Cats alive and dead at the same time?
That's veering off into cosmology, that strange place where physics, pure mathematics and philosophy collide uncomfortably. At least it's uncomfortable for me.

To say that every universe that is equally likely to exist after the occurrence of a random event actually does exist is a multiverse model which, like string theory and all the other cosmological models of the last century, postulates dimensions that we can't perceive. I'll leave that to the brane theorists and they can get back to me when they've got it figured out and rendered into understandable language.
I'm not denying science or even evolution, I'm just pointing out that even within the realms of science there's room for plenty of kooky stuff so you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss someone as dishonest just because they don't believe all the same things you do.
I'm not calling him dishonest because he had different beliefs. I meet people all the time who have different beliefs from mine but they are honest about them. I'm calling him dishonest because his manipulation of the evidence was disingenuous.
I personally see no conflict between religion and science. To me, a God who must often break the laws of nature (laws that he established) displays a striking lack of planning.
I state the fundamental premise of science, in layman's language, thus: The natural universe is a closed system whose behavior can be predicted by theories derived logically from empirical observation of its present and past behavior. This premise is a component of the scientific method, which is recursive and has been tested exhaustively for five centuries without any respectable evidence being found to cast doubt on it.

So to postulate a supernatural universe whose creatures and forces perturb the workings of the natural universe does indeed contradict science.
So I'd expect God to accomplish what he wants to accomplish thru the natural processes of the universe, which would include evolution.
The Cosmic Watchmaker model. Wind it up, sit back and enjoy watching your toy.

I can even respect the Impatient Cosmic Watchmaker model. Who wants to sit around for twelve billion years watching the galactic equivalent of grass growing, as planets slowly form and primordial ooze turns into protozoa? Put the damn thing together with the humans and their biosphere already in existence; you can easily put light waves in all the right places to look like they've been traveling from the edge of an expanding universe for twelve billion years. Then pull the thread, like a ship in a bottle, setting it all in motion. Now grab the beer and the nachos and sit back to watch some real fun.

Of course this model begs the same question that all creationist models beg. The meaning of the word "universe" is "everything that exists." If the god or the cosmic watchmaker is out there doing all these things, that's pretty incontrovertable evidence that he exists. So okay then, where did he come from?

The problem with any creationist model of the universe is that if you ask all the hard questions and push it to its limit, you end up with a universe of truly comical complexity, and on top of that you still don't have any of your questions answered. You're much worse off than when you started. It's as if it were not created by a Cosmic Watchmaker, but by a Cosmic Rube Goldberg.
 
Many people believe in divine creation of the universe or even of the first living things while accepting evolution as the origin of humans and other modern lifeforms. The Pope, as a rather notable example, accepts the seven-day fable as a metaphor without forsaking his faith in his god.
Wow. I didn't know that about the pope. Interesting.
Of course this model begs the same question that all creationist models beg. The meaning of the word "universe" is "everything that exists." If the god or the cosmic watchmaker is out there doing all these things, that's pretty incontrovertable evidence that he exists. So okay then, where did he come from?

The problem with any creationist model of the universe is that if you ask all the hard questions and push it to its limit, you end up with a universe of truly comical complexity, and on top of that you still don't have any of your questions answered. You're much worse off than when you started. It's as if it were not created by a Cosmic Watchmaker, but by a Cosmic Rube Goldberg.
You can say the same thing about any model of the universe. What came before the big bang? Is there one universe, or an infinite number? Is our universe nothing more than a small portion of a much larger universe?

Ben Bova, in his Orion series, had an interesting interpretation. In his book Homo Sapiens were created for the sole purpose of wiping out Neanderthals. Neanderthals were too well adapted to their environment and were living like happy hippies, not progressing-- just living in harmony with nature and each other.

So God created us to kill them and make room for his perfect creation. But once the job was done, we wouldn't die. God kept trying to wipe us out, but we just kept on surviving. Ultimately, God (one of many gods, actually) discovers that he can't kill us because we are him.

We ultimately evolved into a super being with a collective consciousness, perhaps something like ascention in StarGate. This collective consciousness existed outside of time and so could move freely in time or space. One of the first acts of the collective consciouness was to go back in time an save the consciousness of every human who had ever lived at the moment of their death.

Or consider the character of Merlin, moving backwards in time. Either of these ideas, each dreamt up solely for the purpose of telling a story, could explain where God came from. What the hell, it's as plausible as a Boltzman brain!
 
i'm really interested in the op.
any proposed mechanism for dino's evolving wings?

my main catch, flying is just way too complex to be naturally selected from a set of one generation mutations.

i mean longer necks in leaf eating animals i understand, but flying??
 
i'm really interested in the op.
any proposed mechanism for dino's evolving wings?

The mechanism that allows organisms to change is evolution

my main catch, flying is just way too complex to be naturally selected from a set of one generation mutations.
No-one is suggesting it is from a set of one generation mutations.

Think about how evolution works - think about all of the living and extinct intermediates to flully flighted animals you'll realise that flight is not too complex to have evolved.
 
What the hell is this list of lies here about? :eek::

http://eternian.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/bird-evolution/

I was told by my teachers in high school and preschool and college that it's a fact birds were once dinosaurs? Come on who are these creationists knuckleheads always contradicting science and teachers!!!!!!! WE MUST refute these people!!!! WITH SCIENCE! These cretanists haha! they don't CARE about SCIENCE though that's why it's probably not even worth our time to talk to them! Just let them believe lies and destroy themselves and end up in jail as druggies and junkies because of these lies. It's survival of the fittest and they can't adapt to the truth! THEY CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! When will these people accept evolution and evolve? They don't believe in archaeoraptor, archeopteryx, nothing, no evidence convinces them! They are truly dinosaurs!

there was a thing on disc or history channel last night on the exact topic.. they proved that a chicken.. has all the features to have sharp teeth a tail ect in early stages of growth.. the thing that decides if its a dino or a chicken is controlled by 8 controller genes that turn on at certin points.. in otherwords.. if u minipulate these genes just 1 you could have a chicken with fur, a tail, sharp teeth, ect.. if you minuplate them all u could have basically a baby dino persay
 
Not coming from any religious background or creationist ideology, just using my own observations. That sadi, i never understood why people would say that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Having naturally scientific and analytical interest i am sure i sadi the same thing here years ago.

there is now proof that birds did evolve from dinos... what planet do you live on?
 
my main catch, flying is just way too complex to be naturally selected from a set of one generation mutations.

i mean longer necks in leaf eating animals i understand, but flying??
Imagine an animal that lives in and around trees. It spends a lot of its time in trees jumping from branch to branch and, occasionally, falls off. When falling, suppose the animals spread their arms and legs to increase wind resistance and slow their fall.

Animals with longer arms and legs and a lot of fur or loose skin might be better at surviving such falls. Eventually, a wing like structure might evolve that not only increases the animals chance of surviving a fall, but allows it to sort of glide like a "flying squiril".

It's not too far from there to full flight.
 
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Yes, this is what I’ve always said. “Creation science” is the antithesis of the genuine scientific method, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that “creation scientists” are dumb. They are often very clever con artists who know how to manipulate science and people in order to achieve their goal.
It's just so irrational.

I mean, given they believe in a God. Well OK. But why KNOWINGLY Lie? How does that achieve their goal? What is their goal?
 
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