You could only ask such a question if you think Muslim women are too stupid to know what is right for them as individuals. Should they be ignored and their voices not heard because they choose to wear the headscarf?
To the first point, that's ridiculous. My question most certainly does not require that. To the second, obviously not. Again, I never implied any such thing.
What gives the white privileged women in the West the right to dictate what constitutes free and unoppressed fashion in Islamic, Asian and African nations?
Do you understand what "white privilege" means? I'm guessing not, given your rote adherence to the phraseology.
For that matter, do you understand what "dictate" means? Are social mores in Iran being influenced by feminists in New Jersey?
What you're probably trying to ask, but are incapable because it isn't inflammatory enough, is "What gives them the right to judge?" which of course begs the question of what gives
you the right to judge
them. The answer is simple: We make value judgments all the time. People are only right or wrong relative to the values of the observer. And what you're doing in judging feminists is no different than what the feminists themselves are doing in judging others.
I mean have white feminists even looked at the Amish for oppressiveness? What about Jewish women who are spat on if they walk on the wrong side of the street or sit on a bus in Israel?
Wait, you're upset at western feminists for having a negative opinion of oppressive Islamic culture, and for
not having a negative opinion of other oppressive cultures? Is this really just about perceived hypocrisy? Because I can assure you, feminist ire is not exclusively directed at Islam.
In other words, if they choose to adhere to their religious teachings of dressing modestly by wearing the hijab, then they cannot be taken seriously... The very thing that Muslim feminists have said for decades when it comes to the feminist movement.
See, this is why I get pissed at you. I never said any such thing.
I said the specific claim that the hijab is not a tool and symbol of oppression would not be taken seriously. I never said that women who wear the hijab cannot be taken seriously.
Please don't twist my words to fit your agenda.
Then you obviously did not read the article in the OP.
I certainly did. Its thrust was the effort of Muslim feminists to spread feminism among Muslim women. They're providing a place for those women specifically to discuss their concerns.
For an item of clothing that a Muslim woman may choose to wear?
Are we really going to pretend it's just a piece of cloth? That it has no connotations beyond that? That is has no uses besides fashion?
Would you say the same applies to the fashion world and the media who expect women to put on a show and wear spectacular dresses or dress a certain way for work, home life, parties, award shows? What about the expectation of thinness? Would you think a woman is oppressed if she is expected to dress a certain way to appeal to the man in her life or to attract a man?
Of course I would. Who wouldn't abhor the narrow definition of beauty propagated by the media? Women have
died because of it.
Is this
really just about consistency with you? You seem on one hand to make a principled argument, then retreat to one solely based on what you perceive as hypocrisy.
For example, there is a thread on this site titled "
What do women wear that turns you off"..
Probably one of the most sexist and stupid threads started on this site in recent history.
I think it's probably not appropriate for this site, but sexist? Are you kidding me? It's a thread with a bunch of guys and some girls discussing what they find attractive--and unattractive--in women's fashion. Are we to believe that you've never had a similar conversation with your own friends? You have no opinion about men's clothing? You want us to believe that having a preference in clothing is somehow wrong? Come on, get serious.
The thread is basically about men discussing what women wear or how they present themselves and what turns them off. Quite a few women also posted in it.
Wait. Are you saying that some women here are actually acting against their own best interests, and against the best interests of other women?! SAY IT AIN'T SO, BELLS!!!
In short, it's a thread where men get to compare what women should wear, etc, to attract them as a potential mate. When
James asks if there is a reciprocal thread for men and what about what women find attractive and commented about whether this thread was just to ogle at women, no one commented on it.. Instead, they gave a list of what women should and should not wear and what does and does not attract them..
Again, are we to believe you've never had a similar conversation? That you don't hold opinions of your own on the subject? That you have absolutely no preference whatsoever for what a man wears?
I don't know, maybe you just don't understand sexism, or what the problem with the media's portrayal of women actually is. I mean, women aren't developing eating disorders because guys like heels better than flats. They're developing eating disorders because the media has
defined beauty as this one exceptionally narrow and impossible to achieve ideal. Personal preference doesn't shape society, and for every guy who says he likes huge breasts and narrow hips, you'll find just as many who like women with meat on their bones, and everything in between and on both extremes. You're trying to argue that having an opinion about clothing and makeup is destructive, and it just isn't. You're dead wrong about this.
If that thread had had just one Muslim man say 'a woman who wears a hijab or dresses modestly' I'd bet many would protest and say it was oppressing the woman.
I honestly don't know what this has to do with anything, and I'm not convinced it's true. Given the subject of the thread, I doubt you would have moved any political needles with such a statement.
That thread and what was said in that thread can be deemed just as oppressive as Muslim men who may expect their wives to dress a certain way or be turned off.
No. Absolutely no, and I'm disturbed to see you write this. Do you really think that oppression manifests as
personal preference? Jesus Christ. No. A thousand times, no. Preference isn't oppression.
Boy, you keep harping on this "white privileged women," but how sheltered does your existence have to be to conflate having a preference in women's fashion to
the oppression of women? I mean, what the
hell?
It's not religion. It's culture. Religion is just the scapegoat used by oppressive communities, families and governments.
You're wrong. Religion informs culture, just like culture informs religion--at least insofar as how strictly one adheres to their religion's dogma. It's not a scapegoat, it's a cause.
And I think silencing a woman because of how she dresses or what religion she belongs to because she does not fit into the ideal of "feminism" as interpreted by privileged white women in the west is one of the biggest problems and you are pretty much doing just that by declaring your privileged white status as the "right minded individuals".
There are many, many problems here, so let's address them one at a time.
First, I'm going to need you to explain your obsession with white people, because it has the appearance of racism. Do you really think all western feminists are white--because that would be grossly inaccurate--or is it specifically the white ones you have a problem with? If it's the latter, what, exactly is your problem with white women? What about their whiteness offends you? Why is their skin color even relevant?
You then need to define also what you mean by "privilege," because you're either using that term too broadly to be of any use, or specifically to the individual, in which case you would be making irresponsible assumptions about me because you don't know me or my situation. In either case, you probably shouldn't be saying it.
Also, get your facts straight. I never said anything about my "status" being "right-minded individuals," though I suppose complaining about such an incoherent sentence is pointless.
The whole basis of this thread is Western feminist ideology locking out non-Western feminists from the discussion.
No, it isn't. The basis of this thread is to discuss the linked article, which is about Muslim feminists attempting to provide platforms for other Muslim women to voice their concerns.
Lets face it Balerion, whether you are comfortable with the subject or not, Western and white feminism has dominated the discussion and feminist ideology in general. Women who do not fit into that 'ideal' have been left out in the cold. It's not about white people being evil. It's about white and Western feminist ideology dominating all discourse up until now, where women from other cultures are now able to have a say and discuss as per their own cultural beliefs and their experiences.
Again, I don't know where you get the idea that western feminists are all white, or that they're shutting out people who don't fit their "ideal," which apparently to you means being white. You're really trying to distract from the key issue--which is that being Muslim and a feminist is viewed by many as a dichotomy--and make this one of race, and taking that opportunity to practice some anti-white hate speech. The hate speech is disturbing in its own right, but the subject of the thread you're derailing makes it particularly shameful. And considering you're the first one to accuse others of bigotry, racism, sexism, (concepts which, by the way, I'm now learning you have no understanding of whatsoever) I'm stunned that you're so doing this so blatantly.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I'm actually disappointed in you. Wow. You win, universe.
My purpose here is to discuss the feminist voices in other cultures.
Then why haven't you done so? Instead, your posts are overly concerned with the whiteness of the people you're demonizing.
Your purpose appears to disregard them if they don't dress like you expect them to or if they belong to a religion you don't happen to like.
Please show me where I do that. Go on, take your time.
No, seriously. I want you to support this fucking absurd accusation with a citation.
Which further illustrates what non-white feminists have been facing from Western feminists for decades.
Serious question: You do realize that not all western feminists are white, right? I mean, in your zeal to demonize white people, you're completely dismissing every non-white feminist in the west.
Once again, you just made their point. They either convert and be forced to believe in Western ways or be disregarded and treated as though they are stupid.
I can't believe I need to say this, but
that's not their point. No one--certainly not Muslim feminists
(Who happen to be Westerners, for the record; this movement is taking place in the UK. But, you know, can't let facts get in the way of blind hate!--is suggesting that the options are convert or be treated as though you are stupid. The feminist movement simply needs to get used to the idea that being Muslim and being a feminist is not a contradiction. And it will. Movements like the one discussed in the OP's article will help that.