Biblical Contraditions: Question #3

Thoreau

Thoreau

Valued Senior Member
Biblical Contradictions: Question #3

Today's topic is: Salvation.

According to Christianity, the fate of our very souls lay in the hands of Jesus' and/or God's judgement. The common belief is that if we choose not to believe in and accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, blah blah blah, etc etc etc, then we are doomed to spend an eternity in Hell.

But is that really the case?

You'd think that if the fate of our souls was such a huge importance, then God would be EXTREMELY clear as to what we would have to do to earn salvation. After all, this is our very existence we are talking about, right? How we spend the rest of eternity depends on this life alone.

Of course, questions arise like, "Where is Gandhi (a Hindu who did many great things) - Heaven or Hell?"So to find the answer (again, according to Christianity), I cracked open the Bible only to discover that there is no clear and definitive answer at all!

The way I'm seeing, there are essentially two arguments in the salvation debate:

1) That you need to have faith to be saved.

and

2) You need to do good deeds to be saved.

Now, if #1 is the case, then it looks like Christians have the magic key. There's no two ways around it.

But if #2 is the case, then anyone who lives a "good" life and does "good" deeds, is able to achieve salvation. (Let's not get into the symantics of what defines "good" unless it is pertinent to the discussion, please). Since #2 doesn't have many stipulations, I'm assuming that this is applicable to people of any faith or lack thereof.

(Bear with me. This is all under the assumption that Christianity is, in fact, the one true world view - that heaven, Jesus, etc all are facts.)

But the fact is that the Bible poses two contradictory claims. Let's take a look at a few of them...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation is by faith

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:18, 36

A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28

The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith. - Galations 3:11-12

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. - Titus 3:5

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9


Salvation is by deeds

For you render to each one according to his works. - Psalm 62:12

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. - Ecclesiastes - 12:14

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. - 2 Corinthians 5:10

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. - Revelations 2:23

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:21-25

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So here we have five different claims for each side of the argument.

Also, though I could be mistaken, I do not see even ONE TIME where the Bible says that BOTH faith and deeds are required for salvation.

In short, this leaves me with two questions I propose to Christians...



#1) Is salvation by faith, deeds, or both?

#2) How do you justify your answer when the Bible does not provide a clear explanation?



On a side note, my personal theory is this: Christians have to either ignore and outright reject certain verses of the Bible in order to maintain their own belief system in their religion.




---------------------------------------------

Note to Mods: Can someone please correct my title and add the 'c' in Contradictions? Thank you!
 
Last edited:
Quite simple. Salvation is supposedly by faith, and a true faith should have some outward effect. There is also a differentiation from works for their own rewards of praise, etc..
 
Syne said:
Quite simple. Salvation is supposedly by faith, and a true faith should have some outward effect. There is also a differentiation from works for their own rewards of praise, etc..
Click to expand...

But what if one has faith in, say, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other "-ism" (lol) and does just as much, if not more, than a Christian.

A precise example would be this:

Person #1:
- Christian
- Volunteers two nights/wk feeding homeless

Person #2:
- Atheist
- Volunteers 6 nights/wk feeding homeless.
- Donates 50% of income to charity.

Despite the Atheist having obviously done more good and having a bigger "outward effect", the Christian would still be favored in the eyes of God because he's Christian?

"God is just" obviously would be false, would it not? There is nothing fair nor just about biasness and exclusion based on faith, at least not to me.
 
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:18, 36​

Versus:

For you render to each one according to his works. - Psalm 62:12

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. - Ecclesiastes - 12:14

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. - 2 Corinthians 5:10

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. - Revelations 2:23

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:21-25​

So the bible, which is just a collection of texts as opposed to a "book" in the sense that we mean it, says that both faith and deeds are each the lone factor in deciding who gets everlasting life. If you believe, you're in; if you're a bad person, you're out. But what if you believe and you're a bad person? This cannot be reconciled, and we are left with a glaring contradiction.
 
It's ambiguity is it's strength, since it's open to wide interpretation and thus a wider audience.
 
JDawg said:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:18, 36​

Versus:

For you render to each one according to his works. - Psalm 62:12

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. - Ecclesiastes - 12:14

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. - 2 Corinthians 5:10

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. - Revelations 2:23

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:21-25​

So the bible, which is just a collection of texts as opposed to a "book" in the sense that we mean it, says that both faith and deeds are each the lone factor in deciding who gets everlasting life. If you believe, you're in; if you're a bad person, you're out. But what if you believe and you're a bad person? This cannot be reconciled, and we are left with a glaring contradiction.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
 
spidergoat said:
It's ambiguity is it's strength, since it's open to wide interpretation and thus a wider audience.
Click to expand...

It's ambiguous in places, but there are also some very clear declarations within. What leaves it up for interpretation is that it is a collection of words, and as such will always be interpreted differently by different people.
 
It's like this: At the pearly gates St. Peter hands you a test in Algebra II. If you pass that he hands you a test in Calculus III. If you make it by those he'll escort you to the hypodrive and if you can fix it, you get to be God's mechanic, otherwise there are 2 doors. One leads into the hyperspace root singularity (Hell) and the other leads into a fetus. God wants mathematicians.
 
HectorDecimal said:
It's like this: At the pearly gates St. Peter hands you a test in Algebra II. If you pass that he hands you a test in Calculus III. If you make it by those he'll escort you to the hypodrive and if you can fix it, you get to be God's mechanic, otherwise there are 2 doors. One leads into the hyperspace root singularity (Hell) and the other leads into a fetus. God wants mathematicians.
Click to expand...

You and you're damned "hypodrive". Do you realize that is not a scientific term?
 
MZ3Boy84 said:
Also, can you point to a verse where it states as such?
Click to expand...

Sure, but why bother? It is pretty clear that you have a bias that cannot be overcome. For a reasonable and intelligent man it should suffice to point out that faith is primary for "salvation" and should be apparent in actions. Most accounts of deeds alone are in respect to reaping what one sows, whether in this life or possibly experiencing the results in the next. Two separate issues.

But you're not seeking to understand, only to shore up and justify your own bias.
 
Syne said:
But you're not seeking to understand, only to shore up and justify your own bias.
Click to expand...

Elsewhere, MZBoy recently stated that the key to happiness are acceptance and contentment.
But clearly, with these threads on biblical contradictions, he's not practicing either of them.
 
What the fuck is wrong with you, MZBoy? Why are you coming up with these pathetic excuses of contradictions when there MUST be way better ones? Are you actually a theist pretending to be an atheist just to provided stupid "contradictions" which aren't contradictions at ALL?

There is nothing contradictory about those scriptures, theists should believe in both.

Faith and Good Deeds.

If you perform Good Deeds without Faith, God can read hearts and see if you are a good person/truth seeker or a vial person/believes in God, but doesn't care to do good deeds.

The Bible does give a clear explanation:

2 Corinthians (on the works side) and all, Ephesians, Romans, Titus, and Galatians (on the faith side) are supposedly written by 1 person: Paul.

John (on the faith side) and Revelations (on the works side) were both written (again, supposedly) by John.

Does that make sense? I believe it does.

So move along to something more contradictory.
 
Last edited:
garbonzo said:
What the fuck is wrong with you, MZBoy? Why are you coming up with these pathetic excuses of contradictions when there MUST be way better ones? Are you actually a theist pretending to be an atheist just to provided stupid "contradictions" which aren't contradictions at ALL?

There is nothing contradictory about those scriptures, theists should believe in both.

Faith and Good Deeds.

If you perform Good Deeds without Faith, God can read hearts and see if you are a good person/truth seeker or a vial person/believes in God, but doesn't care to do good deeds.

The Bible does give a clear explanation:

2 Corinthians (on the works side) and all, Ephesians, Romans, Titus, and Galatians (on the faith side) are supposedly written by 1 person: Paul.

John (on the faith side) and Revelations (on the works side) were both written (again, supposedly) by John.

Does that make sense? I believe it does.

So move along to something more contradictory.
Click to expand...

First of all, calm yourself. There is nothing "the fuck wrong with him." He pointed out a clear contradiction in the bible, and asked about it. The explanation "these were written by two different people" explains only why it the two statements contradict each other; it does not reconcile them as contradictions, however.

One states faith is the lone factor, the other states faith is. These are irreconcilable contradictions, garbonzo.
 
I'm not sure where you got that explanation from. I said that 2 authors wrote both works and faith, not that they were written by different people.

Eg. If you say you want eggs for breakfast and then you say you want toast for breakfast, is that a contradiction? No. You could be saying you want both, since you never explicitly implied you DIDNT want eggs. This is obviously what the theists argue.

I'm just tired of this guy basically making us look bad. Imagine if an informed theists like what I used to be came on her to debate the truth, saw this, and thinks this is the atheist's crappy reasoning.
 
All of MZ3Boy's "contradictions" have been Proven false by me an atheist. The real theists would laugh at him.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top