Biblical and historical evidences about Jesus

[PetriFB]

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Bible_and_the_history6


When we begin to examine the texts of the gospels and the Letters of the New Testament, Jesus is the central figure. The four gospels tell us about his life here on earth while the epistles describe the meaning of his death and his resurrection according to Christian belief. We can actually say that if he hadn’t lived on earth, none of these texts would have been written, and the New Testament would not have been born.

As we then start to examine the historicity of Jesus we find proof of his life on earth. This proof has been preserved by his successors, such as the early church fathers, and also from his opponents. Both sources refer to various parts of his life.

Next we examine some sources which refer to his historicity. They clearly show that Jesus really lived on this earth:

 

[Trilairian]

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Bible_and_the_history6
We can actually say that if he hadn’t lived on earth, none of these texts would have been written, and the New Testament would not have been born.

So in the same line of reasoning if frosty the snow man wasn't a real living snowman his story would never have been written. No you have no evidence of the historicity of Jesus which was a disappointment because I went to the sight actually thinking you might have had some.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Bible_and_the_history6

When we begin to examine the texts of the gospels and the Letters of the New Testament, Jesus is the central figure. The four gospels tell us about his life here on earth while the epistles describe the meaning of his death and his resurrection according to Christian belief. We can actually say that if he hadn’t lived on earth, none of these texts would have been written, and the New Testament would not have been born.

As we then start to examine the historicity of Jesus we find proof of his life on earth. This proof has been preserved by his successors, such as the early church fathers, and also from his opponents. Both sources refer to various parts of his life.

Next we examine some sources which refer to his historicity. They clearly show that Jesus really lived on this earth:

*************
M*W: It's not that clear to the rest of us. Could you please cite some scholarly extrabiblical sources? The bible is a piece of literature. It tells a story, in fact, many stories, but that doesn't mean they really happened or the characters in the stories were real. All of the extrabiblical texts that refer to Jesus have been proved as forgeries.

I used to believe Jesus existed historically, but the more I studied about it, the farther Jesus became removed from literal existence. Faith in something is not proof that it exists.

 

[(Q)]

We can actually say that if he hadn’t lived on earth, none of these texts would have been written, and the New Testament would not have been born.

So, Harry Potter was a real person?

 

[finewine]

So in the same line of reasoning if frosty the snow man wasn't a real living snowman his story would never have been written. No you have no evidence of the historicity of Jesus which was a disappointment because I went to the sight actually thinking you might have had some.

I think it is a very good endeavor to confirm the historicity of Jesus though it may be a waste of time since people will believe what they want to believe and be selective in their arguments to support their bias.
I hesitate to even get into this debate because of closed minds on both sides of the camp but I saw this link and so I thought it would be something to contribute since it was dealing with the historicity of Jesus.

The question that has to be asked is

Who is Jesus?

This source states references that are outside of the gospel accounts and at the first glance seem to attest to the historical accuracy of what the gospels say about Jesus.

references to the historical Jesus outside those in the Bible.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I think it is a very good endeavor to confirm the historicity of Jesus though it may be a waste of time since people will believe what they want to believe and be selective in their arguments to support their bias. I hesitate to even get into this debate because of closed minds on both sides of the camp but I saw this link and so I thought it would be something to contribute since it was dealing with the historicity of Jesus.

The question that has to be asked is

Who is Jesus?

This source states references that are outside of the gospel accounts and at the first glance seem to attest to the historical accuracy of what the gospels say about Jesus.

references to the historical Jesus outside those in the Bible.

*************
M*W: Your extrabiblical references have long been proven to be forgeries.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel2.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml

 

[finewine]

Yes, that is what you will say of course. It is always good to start at the beginning so that we understand each other.

Now, I do know that we are beating a dead horse here.

My only reason for even jumping into this is so that those who read can have a better understanding of how to think critically about history and historians and how to be skeptical of any "evidence" , yea or nay, and test it to see if it holds water to what is known as proper scholarly analysis.

As to your reference in regards to the list: Remsburg's List -- The List as Proof

I will ask these questions:
Why would these people have need to mention Jesus in their writing?
What are the assumptions you are making about the writings of these people?
Why do most of these writers not mention in abundance anything about either Christians nor Jews. They were certainly there at the time of Jesus?
Why do you see Remsberg's arguments and list as "proof" that Jesus was not a historical figure?

The rebuttal by J.P. Holding --The List Is Not Proof

 

[geeser]

I think it is a very good endeavor to confirm the historicity of Jesus though it may be a waste of time since people will believe what they want to believe and be selective in their arguments to support their bias.

what bias, when theres no evidence how can you have bias.

I hesitate to even get into this debate because of closed minds on both sides of the camp

if the evidence is there, and you dont believe it, then your being close minded, but as there is no evidence, you can not.

but I saw this link and so I thought it would be something to contribute since it was dealing with the historicity of Jesus.

The question that has to be asked is

Who is Jesus?

was there a person like this, was there a messiah. well that depends on the religion.
the subject of jesus ever existing has been debated many a time here, as of yet no proof of a character called jesus ever existing has come to light.
have you ever read of mithra, (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/mithra.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra) of gilgamesh, (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library...mian/gilgamesh/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh) there are literally thousand of stories, from different religions old and new, the profess a jesus type messiah, it is just a fictious story. http://www.godchecker.com/
do a bit more studing before you make silly claims, you end up with egg on you face.

below are some of the many debates over the years.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52294
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51870
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51670
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52231
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51064
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48967
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48819

This source states references that are outside of the gospel accounts and at the first glance seem to attest to the historical accuracy of what the gospels say about Jesus.

but what of gilgamesh, mithra, the story of krishna, the viking gods, http://www.godchecker.com/etc, all have simular stories, all just stories.

My only reason for even jumping into this is so that those who read can have a better understanding of how to think critically about history and historians and how to be skeptical of any "evidence" , yea or nay, and test it to see if it holds water to what is known as proper scholarly analysis.

of which it seems you neglected to do.

I will ask these questions:
Why would these people have need to mention Jesus in their writing?

because the stories were told down the eons, and they came to believe them to be true, some people still do.

What are the assumptions you are making about the writings of these people?

as there is no solid evidence, these people, where only relating hearsay stories, we now know that thousand of religions have simular stories, which links to man migration of the world.

Why do most of these writers not mention in abundance anything about either Christians nor Jews. They were certainly there at the time of Jesus?

well xians certainly were'nt there. but jews/hebrews and many other were, however what is the relevance as they all write refering to either xians or are jews/hebrews

Why do you see Remsberg's arguments and list as "proof" that Jesus was not a historical figure?

first lack of evidence and second because of all the countless other so called man gods in all the other religions, ancient and modern

 

[finewine]

edited. Hit submit button before I was finished.

 

[KennyJC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the Gospels that had writing of Jesus were written during his life. In fact 50-60 years later? Such a time is enough for myths to become mainstay as peasants listen to preachers talk of a 'saviour' who did all these great things.

A character who walks on water, turns water to wine, virgin birth, dies then comes back to life, ascends to heaven etc is a fictional character.

 

[Godless]

A character who walks on water, turns water to wine, virgin birth, dies then comes back to life, ascends to heaven etc is a fictional character.

Naaa! Kenny, jesus is small patatoes, this character is just a significant small part of a larger puzzle, religious rhetoric is all fiction, one invented only to manipulate, deceive, and build nations of greed & power, ain't it funny the pundits who run for public office display their religion like a badge of honor? These deceivers, amoral bunch of quislings living off the fruits of others, only feed themselves through the biggest lie ever told.

Godless

 

[spidergoat]

I'm confident he existed. His teaching and the miracles is another matter altogether. I think perhaps Moses and Abraham were entirely fictional.

 

[finewine]

Geezer:

First of all I would check your sources again.
They are not comparable Messiah stories.
Copycats

Second of all Wikipedia is not a reliable source of scholarship for this kind of study.
Reliability of Sources

 

[finewine]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the Gospels that had writing of Jesus were written during his life. In fact 50-60 years later? Such a time is enough for myths to become mainstay as peasants listen to preachers talk of a 'saviour' who did all these great things.

A character who walks on water, turns water to wine, virgin birth, dies then comes back to life, ascends to heaven etc is a fictional character.

Or He could actually be who he said he was and is in fact GOD incarnate.
What you do with that information is between you and GOD.

You do raise a valid question. How do I know the Gospels are reliable sources of information about Jesus? If they are, how can it possibly be that he raised a person from the dead, walked on water, turned water into wine???
Do we just dismiss the miraculous and what it means because it seems too impossible and challenges what we believe?

There is much information and much to contemplate about the Gospels and it is best said at this link if you are really interested in answering that question.

What About the Gospels?
Scroll down to the word 'Gospels' and visit all the links on those books.

Oral Traditions

Happy studying.

 

[finewine]

Naaa! Kenny, jesus is small patatoes, this character is just a significant small part of a larger puzzle, religious rhetoric is all fiction, one invented only to manipulate, deceive, and build nations of greed & power, ain't it funny the pundits who run for public office display their religion like a badge of honor? These deceivers, amoral bunch of quislings living off the fruits of others, only feed themselves through the biggest lie ever told.

Godless

First of all you are making the wrong assumption about the truth of Christianity.
It is not a man made religion for political advancement of greed and power.

I will agree with you that men use the banner of 'religion' to promote their agendas.
It is how politics works, appeal to the whatever the public's bandwagon is at the time, but do not say because they use Christianity incorrectly that Christianity is false.

Where are the sources cited in your source that you linked to make me believe that is a credible source of scholarship?
To your link that is saying that monotheism comes from astrology I will reply

Pagan Origins of Christianity

I would dig deeper into your sources and do a more thorough study of the origins instead of believing an online sales pitch that manipulates you into buying a book and promoting its falsehoods and its own agenda.

But I will take a look at your book and get back to you.

 

[finewine]

*************
M*W: Your extrabiblical references have long been proven to be forgeries.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel2.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml

Ok medicine woman
How reliable are your sources? Why do these prove Jesus does not exist as a historical figure?
Do you even know the criteria that historians use in their scholarship?
Are your sources here really experts in the field or are they basing their information on information in a book whose source is from a less than expert scholar and historian.

I really suggest that all of you who want to claim you can give scholarly discourse on the subject matter of Jesus Christ and the Bible should read thoroughly the following website and then come back to discuss it without all the fallacies you promote in your scholarship.

http://www.tektonics.org

Medicine Woman: Here is the link that talks about your proof.
Jesus Exists

Happy studying.
Finewine

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Ok medicine woman
How reliable are your sources? Why do these prove Jesus does not exist as a historical figure?

M*W: There's a ton of web sites out there as well as scholarly texts regarding no existence of an historical Jesus. The sources I provided are not the entirety of "proof" that Jesus didn't exist. The burden of proof is on your shoulders to prove if Jesus did exist. Can you prove he did exist? No.

Do you even know the criteria that historians use in their scholarship?
Are your sources here really experts in the field or are they basing their information on information in a book whose source is from a less than expert scholar and historian.

M*W: Yes, I understand how scholars and archeologists determine scientific bases for finding proof, and they publish their findings in such journals as Biblical Archeology Review or they write books about their findings.

Your J.P. Holding is a pseudonym for a Mr. Robert Turkel who is a criminal felon involved in child abduction. You need to check your sources. This topic has been discussed many times over in this forum. Still, the staunchest christians on this forum have been unable to provide one shard of evidence regarding the existence of Jesus.

I maintain my belief that all religion began from man's interpretation of the stars, planet and elements. The New Testament is an astrological calendar, and Jesus is the Sun. Other dying demigod saviors came before Jesus -- some 25 of them! "There is nothing new under the sun!"

I really suggest that all of you who want to claim you can give scholarly discourse on the subject matter of Jesus Christ and the Bible should read thoroughly the following website and then come back to discuss it without all the fallacies you promote in your scholarship.

http://www.tektonics.org

M*W: Atheists on this forum know more than the christians whose understanding of jesus and christianity is limited to false propaganda they been fed. Make sure you're up to it when trying to prove that Jesus existed on this forum. It would be easier to prove the Easter Bunny will come for sure this Sunday!

Medicine Woman: Here is the link that talks about your proof.
Jesus Exists

M*W: Your link invalidates itself.

 

[geeser]

Geezer:

First of all I would check your sources again.
They are not comparable Messiah stories.
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html Copycats

so every debate on this and other forums, regard the the jesus myth, and every site sourced is wrong, but your one site is right, just like the bible is the infallible word of god. oh yes for sure(sarcasm)does tektonics also print the bible.(more sarcasm)

Second of all Wikipedia is not a reliable source of scholarship for this kind of study.
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html Reliability of Sources

so you dont like that encylopedia, how about this one http://www.reference.com/browse/columbia/Mithra
or this http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0833460.htmland another http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/M/Mithra.asp or http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/mithra.html or are these not reliable sources, I suppose the only reliable source would be the ones that back you up(sarcasm)
here are a few more unreliable sources(sarcasm)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm
http://www.iranian.com/History/Sept97/Mitra/
http://www.themystica.org/mystica/articles/m/mithraism.html
http://www.well.com/~davidu/mithras.html
there seems to be a lot of unreliable sources on the internet better check mine and stick to just your one in future, what's it's name again, oh thats right, tektonics.org( sarcasm)

 

[Godless]

Nuff said from my compadres..