Bible used as Backing/Proof

[Grey Seal]

i know i didn't word the title very well, but what do you think of people using the bible as backing or proof for statements? to substantiate things they say?

i have a neighboe, he's a christian and very religious. my family isnt too religious, me being the least, but he comes over all of the time and always tries to get us to join his church. he constantly tells us how we should do things and how we should live our lives. and if he thinks we don't believe him he starts saying things then reciting verses from the bible to back him up, like that makes everything right...like he has god on his side or something.

I also heard that in the jewish religioin they only have the first 5 books. I heard that in arguments they use the bible to subsantiate what they said and as proof/backing.

maybe with other people with the same religious beliefs that'd work, but wouldnt that just be foolish to recite verses from the bible to people who consider it foolish or just plain don't believe? i know that when i get a bible quoter talking to me i turn-off right away and just wait it out and wait for him to leave...throwing in occasional ok's and yeah's. i could argue with him, but he's too set in his ways, its always just better to let him burn himself out.
he always tells me that wherever i go jesus is with me. i shouldnt do anything jesus wouldnt want to do. he said don't ever see a movie that jesus doesnt want to see, then he asked me if i know what i meant. i wanted to lighten the mood so i said that once jesus and i argued about seeing a movie because he had already seen that one. he just stared at me...he does that whenever my parents or I try to lighten things up, i've never seen him laugh. his kids are nice, but squares...home schooled.

anyway, i was just wondering about what all of you think. theist or agnostic/athiest. and if you're a theist what do you think about people reciting versus from a religious text other than yours? do all of you also get turned off? especially if you know it's coming?

 

[Firefly]

It's soo wierd. I've had it happen a few times. But there's lots of slip ups in the Bible anyway. I think some are highlighted in the first post of a few of Green Worlds posts (I wouldn't bother reading the rest ), but you can fidn them easily on the net. Memorise a few of those, and next time he quotes on you, then reply, "Actually, it's interesting you should mention that, you know this passage here..."

 

[James R]

It is strange that in arguments some religious people quote scripture as the last word which supports what they are saying, even where their opponent doesn't accept the authority of that scripture in the first place.

The problem in many arguments between people of different religious beliefs is the complete lack of common ground. Any argument stumbles at the first hurdle, since what is relied on by each side as evidence is not regarded as such by the other side.

 

[Asguard]

i agree james,

one could say that the universe is proof of god and then someone will say with science who NEEDS god

but yes people who use the bible as there ONLY form of resioning for an ethical debate annoy me (incase no one has noticed)

 

[Nehushta]

Fight fire with fire, maybe?

Grey Seal,

Firefly had a good suggestion. When your neighbor tells you that you should do what Jesus would do, then simply use that opportunity to expound on just exactly what it is that Jesus would do, based on what he allegedly said and did during his sojourn on this planet. Given that Jesus is the example for "Christlike" behavior, here are a few examples of what you should do:

1) Become the catalyst for violent turmoil within families (Matthew 10:34-36)

2) Demand that people love you more than their own families (Matthew 10:37)

3) Ignore your own family, and replace them in your heart with fellow cult members (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21)

4) Demand that people abandon their homes and families for you, promising them eternal life in return; be sure not to mention anything about where that life might be spent, though (Matthew 19:29; Mark 10:29-30)

5) Insist that people not only abandon their families to follow you, but don't even permit them to say goodbye or to first bury their dead (Matthew 8:21-22; Luke 9:59-62)

6) It is not enough that people would be willing to abandon their families for you - they must actually hate their families and themselves (Luke 14:26)

7) Insist that no one should call any man on this earth "father" - that includes their own fathers, of couse (Matthew 23:9)

8) Be rude and thoughtless toward your own parents (Luke 2:41-49; John 2:1-4)

9) Lie to your own family members (John 7:8-10)

10) Be intolerant and insulting toward people from other nations, and refuse them help until they've begged like dogs for crumbs from the master's table (Matthew 15:22-28; Mark 7:25-30)

11) For the purpose of showing off your unearthly powers, feel free to kill a fig tree, cast a mountain into the sea or even destroy an entire herd of swine that belongs to someone else (Matthew 8:28-34; Matthew 21:18-22)

12) For the purpose of proving that you are the fulfillment of ancient scripture, order your followers to steal an ass and her colt for you to ride into town on (Matthew 21:1-5)

These are but a few examples of what Jesus allegedly said and did on this earth, but are rarely mentioned in Sunday school. For more information, please check out the following websites:

Skeptic's Annotated Bible
Things We Didn't Find Out In Sunday School

 

[Zero]

That is cool. I should write that one down.

 

[J.C.]

I hope this isn't too long-winded, but I don't want to give a half hearted answer.

I'm a Christian, but I don't believe it's wise to use the Bible as
proof of itself, unless particular scriptures are at question (as in
the example above.) If someone doesn't believe the Bible is true,
how can you quote scripture in order to convince them? You have
to be prepared to look elsewhere for proof.

Now, I believe God has given man an inherent curiosity. A need
for answers to certain questions. He wouldn't give us the mind to
ask questions if He didn't intend us to find answers.

Every question is a good one, but the answers are only as good
as their source.When looking for answers, I don't rule out
anything off-hand. The Bible can be a valid source for answers, so
delving into scripture is a valid technique when appropriate. I just
make sure not to read too little of the Bible at a time, as
seems to be the mistake in the post above. This can lead to
taking scripture out of context.

P.S. I don't mean to offend by my reference to the post above. I
appreciate every challenge to my beliefs, as they assist in my
search for answers.

I do have some explanations for Nehushta's post, but I don't
want to change the subject of this post, so I'll try to find time to
post a separate response.

 

[Balder1]

Genesis 3:16

To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
your pain in childbirth,
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Yet your desire shall be for your husband
And he shall rule over you."

I especially like quoting this to Christian women.

I'm agnostic, btw.

 

[Slacker47]

Genesis 3:16

GREAT passage.

 

[Nehushta]

No offense taken

J.C.

I'm not offended that you think I am taking scripture out of context - I just ask that you come up with a reasonable explanation for those passages (which hasn't happened yet).

Saying that Jesus didn't really mean what he said when he advised his would-be disciples to hate their families, for example, won't wash. He seems to have had a reasonable command of language, so there is no excuse for him to have selected words that so inadequately conveyed his true meaning, assuming he meant something other than what was plainly stated, of course.

I look forward to your response.

 

[Vienna]

When I was younger i asked the minister some very awkward but valid questions about the bible. He said to me "Don't take the Bible too literally". Big mistake, that was the surest answer to rouse my suspicions.
But hey, everyone to there own.
Peace

 

[Firefly]

Only one response needed

Originally posted by Grey Seal
if he thinks we don't believe him he starts saying things then reciting verses from the bible to back him up,

Reply:

Mat 24:23-24

If any man says to you 'Look, here is the Christ,' or, 'Here,' believe him not. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets who shall show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the very chosen.

 

[J.C.]

Hello again. I've listed some scripture here because I feel this
represents one instance in which it is appropriate to quote the
Bible in a theological discussion. I'm also working on a response
to the list of verses above. I'll create a separate post so as not
to change the subject of this one.

As for Nehushta's statement :

Given that Jesus is the example for "Christlike" behavior, here
are a few examples of what you should do:

We were never intended to do every single thing that Christ did.
For example, we are not expected nail ourselves to crosses. We
are not expected to perform miracles. We are to follow His lead,
but we are not expected to emulate His every action. This is not
to say that Christ did anything morally opposable to Christians.

(Jesus) seems to have had a reasonable command of
language, so there is no excuse for him to have selected words
that so inadequately conveyed his true meaning, (unless) he
meant something other than what was plainly stated, of course...

The wording Christ used to convey His message is not the issue,
but rather the words translators used. For one, the Bible
has been translated from several languages into English. For
another, translations were/are made based upon what message
the translator believes the speaker was trying to convey (not
that those other verses are too difficult to translate, as I hope to
demonstrate in my other post) . For example, here are some
verses with different translations:

1 Samuel 8:16
a)"your goodliest young men and their asses..."
b)"the best of your cattle and donkeys..."

1 Corinthians 7:36
a) "if a man thinketh he behaveth uncomely toward his virgin..."
b)"if a man think he that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter..."
c)"if anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to..."

1 Corinthians 11:29
a)"he that eateth and drinketh unworthily..."
b)"anyone who eats and drinks..."

1 Corinthians 13:3
a)"surrender my body to the flames..."
b)"surrender my body that I may boast..."

(The examples here are given in Fee & Stuart's How to Read
the Bible for All its Worth)

There are various translations available in many languages, all of
which will put forth the translation best suited to the translator's
interpretation. Of course, though I'm just guessing, The
Skeptics Annotated Bible will probably use the most absurd
translations they can drudge up. I recommend trying several
different translations and comparing the text.

 

[Nehushta]

Christlike is as Christlike does...

J.C.,

Jesus was supposed to be the example for how we should live, and in the examples I listed above, he was a pretty poor example of Christlike behavior, if you will - at least insofar as he is portrayed by the translators of the New Testament. By the way, the Skeptic's Annotated Bible uses the KJV, and they don't do much more than commentate.

As for me, I also use the KJV, plus I also use the Interlinear NIV Hebrew-English Old Testament (Zondervan Hebrew Reference Series, John R. Kohlenberger III), the New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament (translators: Robert K. Brown and Philip W. Comfort), a book called "Idioms in the Bible Explained and A Key to the Original Gospels," by George M. Lamsa, as well as the Blue Letter Bible site online - so I'm pretty well set for help in translating the scriptures.

Here are the explanations Lamsa offers on those verses (where he lists them at all):

Matthew 8:31 - "devils besought him" = the insane men besought him; "going away into the swine" = to attack the herd of swine
Matthew 10:34 - "to bring a sword" = to bring division
Matthew 15:26 - "to take children's bread and cast it to dogs" = sharing the truths of Judaism with the pagans
Matthew 21:5 - "riding on an ass" = humble, meek
Matthew 21:21 - "removing mountains" = overcoming seemingly unsurmountable difficulties and problems
Mark 7:26 - "cast devil out of her daughter" = he restored her daughter to sanity
Mark 8:21 - "bury my father" = take care of my father until he dies
Luke 9:62 - "looking back" = a lazy worker

I disagree with his explanation for Matthew 15:26 because the Canaanite woman was not asking for him to share "the truths of Judaism" with her - she was asking him to heal her daughter! I also disagree that "riding on an ass" was merely a figure of speech that meant he came into town in an attitude of humility and meekness. He assigned his disciples the task of stealing a donkey and her colt so he could assume this posture, for goodness sake! Nor do I agree that "looking back" means a lazy worker - in this context I would say it denotes someone who's heart is torn between staying with his loved ones at home and leaving them to start on this new spiritual adventure.

So far I haven't seen a reasonable explanation from anyone for any of those passages I referenced.

 

[J.C.]

Nehushta,

Glad to hear you're being thorough in your search. I'm sure you'll
find my humble explanations very reasonable. I don't mean to
keep you waiting, but I am still working on these explanations
(and other things as well). I also don't want to give a half
hearted response. I'll have it posted a.s.a.p

 

[Nehushta]

Still waiting...

J.C.,

Are you there? I'm still waiting for your explanation, if you're still interested in giving one. If you posted it somewhere else, please direct me to it, as I don't get by here too often.

 

[Firefly]

There's others watching and waiting too. Your interpretations are quite interesting, I'd like to hear more.