Believe Only In Limitlessness

S

Sufi

Registered Senior Member
We know that all our judgments about universe, god and existence are valid as far as we limit the 'existence' to our perception through the five senses.

We also know that our perception tools are LIMITED only to observe a very small section of what is there, a very narrow range of frequencies if compared to what is already available in space.

From there on, considering that the real existence is not limited to the limits of our perception tools, we can hence understand that the basic reality is "limitlessness" of all that exists, beyond which there can be nothing. Because, there is no 'beyond' to the limitless, and limitlessness is all alone on its own.

Nature, the universe, the existence and everyting we can either perceive or not, is ORIGINATED FROM THIS LIMITLESS ONE. So, this LIMITLESS ONE is the Originator, the Creator of everything we know of and we do not know of, including the world, nature, the universe, the entire existence. All things are ORGANIZED by this basic limitless One. It has no separate entity to consider beside 'you' or beside the universe. It cannot be considered as a GOD. Nothing and no one is separate from its WHOLENESS. Nothing and no one is UNDIVIDED from its ONENESS.

This UNSEPARATED, UNDIVIDED, UNBROKEN WHOLE ONE has been referred to as "ALLAH" by Mohammed (pbuh) and in the Koran which confirms all the previous scriptures.

So, our true reality is “Limitlessness,” but it is our beliefs in other things that restrict us from experiencing the limitlessness as our reality. Restrictions that we experience are the results of limited thoughts and limited beliefs.

Therefore, I think, we should not be content with a belief in anything limited (like gods) but benefit from our “belief” by believing only in “Limitlessness,” from which all things are originated and to which all things serve.

What do you think?
 
*We know that all our judgments about universe, god and existence are valid as far as we limit the 'existence' to our perception through the five senses.

Does this mean that any judgement about the universe, God and existence not limited to our perceptions through the five senses is invalid? Yet, I ask, is it even possible to make a judgement about the universe, God and existence that is not based upon perceptions had of the five senses? Are not all of our judgements somehow based in sensory information? Therefore, it seems to me, that you are saying that all our judgements concerning existence, God and the universe are valid, as they are all based in the limited scope of our five sensory perceptors, since even mental perceptions have basis in what it perceived sensorily.

*We also know that our perception tools are LIMITED only to observe a very small section of what is there, a very narrow range of frequencies if compared to what is already available in space.

Yes, our perception tools, which you named as the five known physical senses, are limited to the observations of which they are capable. However, by the use of tools, the range of observation is widened. Furthermore, one may be able to recognize what is observed in its proper context, either by focusing intently on a given detail, or by focusing on no given detail, thereby allowing all that is available to perception to come into attention.

*From there on, considering that the real existence is not limited to the limits of our perception tools, we can hence understand that the basic reality is "limitlessness" of all that exists, beyond which there can be nothing. Because, there is no 'beyond' to the limitless, and limitlessness is all alone on its own.

It may be that real existence is not limited to the limits of our perception tools, however, this does not mean, necessarily, that basic reality is limitless. Basic reality, may, in fact, be limited by a wider range of perception tools, or simply by the nature of itself. Our percetion tools are not "all that exist," hence, we cannot say that because basic reality is not limited to our tools, it is therefore not limited by all that exists.

*Nature, the universe, the existence and everyting we can either perceive or not, is ORIGINATED FROM THIS LIMITLESS ONE. So, this LIMITLESS ONE is the Originator, the Creator of everything we know of and we do not know of, including the world, nature, the universe, the entire existence. All things are ORGANIZED by this basic limitless One. It has no separate entity to consider beside 'you' or beside the universe. It cannot be considered as a GOD. Nothing and no one is separate from its WHOLENESS. Nothing and no one is UNDIVIDED from its ONENESS.

We have not yet established that basic reality is limitless. Ergo, to say that the "limitless one" is the originator is also pre-emptive. While such a construct as what you present is plausible, it is not yet proven, nor have you here proved it. Furthermore, what is your basis for not calling the "limitless one" a God? While it may not have separate entity, it's identity may simply be its infinitude. God is said to be infinite, that is, limitless, therefore, the limitless one that you speak of may be said to be God. It may be that "God" is exactly that, an infinite singularity, or oneness. What do you mean by "nothing and noone is separate from its wholeness. nothing and noone is undivided from its oneness?" Is this to say that all things are a part of it, that all things are it, that it is unified with all things, or that it is the unifyer of all that is?

*This UNSEPARATED, UNDIVIDED, UNBROKEN WHOLE ONE has been referred to as "ALLAH" by Mohammed (pbuh) and in the Koran which confirms all the previous scriptures.

It has also been referred to as God (as opposed to god) by many philosophers, teachers, and holy writings. Allah is simply a word of a specific language that refers to it, as is God.

*So, our true reality is “Limitlessness,” but it is our beliefs in other things that restrict us from experiencing the limitlessness as our reality. Restrictions that we experience are the results of limited thoughts and limited beliefs.

Once again, you have not really yet established that true reality is limitless, you have only asserted it. Furthermore, is this limitless actual, or potential? If it is actual, are we part of that actuality, or are we potentially limitless?

*Therefore, I think, we should not be content with a belief in anything limited (like gods) but benefit from our “belief” by believing only in “Limitlessness,” from which all things are originated and to which all things serve.

Again, while I personally adhere to this form of thought, you have not really shown it to be true.
 
beyondtimeandspace said:
*We know that all our judgments about universe, god and existence are valid as far as we limit the 'existence' to our perception through the five senses.

Does this mean that any judgement about the universe, God and existence not limited to our perceptions through the five senses is invalid?
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No. Any judgement about the universe, God and existence not limited to our perceptions through the five senses is unavailable for us for ever! We can never ever have such a judgment for something that we have no idea of, but we can have a belief only that there may be values completely beyond our perceptions and judgments.

Yet, I ask, is it even possible to make a judgement about the universe, God and existence that is not based upon perceptions had of the five senses? Are not all of our judgements somehow based in sensory information?
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:) Yes, as you said all of our judgements are based in sensory information.

Yes, our perception tools, which you named as the five known physical senses, are limited to the observations of which they are capable. However, by the use of tools, the range of observation is widened. Furthermore, one may be able to recognize what is observed in its proper context, either by focusing intently on a given detail, or by focusing on no given detail, thereby allowing all that is available to perception to come into attention.
Click to expand...

Yes but, no matter however the range of observation is widened, it would never mean an end to what could be perceived!

It may be that real existence is not limited to the limits of our perception tools, however, this does not mean, necessarily, that basic reality is limitless. Basic reality, may, in fact, be limited by a wider range of perception tools, or simply by the nature of itself.
Click to expand...

The conception of limit is caused by our perception. There is no concept of limit in reality. Therefore, the ultimate reality without any restriction to ur judgments is limitlessness. Nothing can be thought to be beyond the limitlessness (where there is no concept of beyond even).

what is your basis for not calling the "limitless one" a God? While it may not have separate entity, it's identity may simply be its infinitude. God is said to be infinite, that is, limitless, therefore, the limitless one that you speak of may be said to be God. It may be that "God" is exactly that, an infinite singularity, or oneness.
Click to expand...

"Limitless one" cannot be a God. God is a metaphor given to us in order to turn our attention to the limits of our perception tools. It is not real. There is no god while ther is limitlessness. After all, whose god is the limitless itself if there is none other than the limtlessness. To accept it as a god you need to be separate from it.

What do you mean by "nothing and noone is separate from its wholeness. nothing and noone is undivided from its oneness?" Is this to say that all things are a part of it, that all things are it, that it is unified with all things, or that it is the unifyer of all that is?
Click to expand...

The limitless is all that exists, nothing else, all the rest is just our namings! The limitless is real. Everything is just illusion!

*This UNSEPARATED, UNDIVIDED, UNBROKEN WHOLE ONE has been referred to as "ALLAH" by Mohammed (pbuh) and in the Koran which confirms all the previous scriptures.

It has also been referred to as God (as opposed to god) by many philosophers, teachers, and holy writings. Allah is simply a word of a specific language that refers to it, as is God.
Click to expand...

Names are symbols denoting a meaning behind them. What is comprehended by names is what matters.

*So, our true reality is “Limitlessness,” but it is our beliefs in other things that restrict us from experiencing the limitlessness as our reality. Restrictions that we experience are the results of limited thoughts and limited beliefs.

Once again, you have not really yet established that true reality is limitless, you have only asserted it. Furthermore, is this limitless actual, or potential? If it is actual, are we part of that actuality, or are we potentially limitless?
Click to expand...

Both actual and potential, encompassing them all! All separations are caused by the limits of our perception. Actaulity and potentiality is valid within the limted perception. The conception of "part" also falls when limitlessness is considered real.

Therefore, I think, we should not be content with a belief in anything limited (like gods) but benefit from our “belief” by believing only in “Limitlessness,” from which all things are originated and to which all things serve.

Again, while I personally adhere to this form of thought, you have not really shown it to be true.
Click to expand...

Only remember the place of all our concepts such as limits, parts, visible, hidden, actual, potential, before, after, etc... Try to thik the same way as the Limitless thinks rather than trying to comprehend a God that has qualities recognized within the limits of our judgments.

Nice to talk to you :)
 
why do you persist sufi, your not converting anyone.
your only preaching, become a cleric, and preach to other muslims in a mosque.
your a proud muslim, be happy with that, and live you life as you see fit.
 
mis-t-highs said:
why do you persist sufi, your not converting anyone.
your only preaching, become a cleric, and preach to other muslims in a mosque.
your a proud muslim, be happy with that, and live you life as you see fit.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't know this was your church.
 
wow touchy, but it seems to be yours, I'm an atheist I have no need of a church.
it's just sometimes your preaching is to strange, and obscure, to understand.
even to your fellow muslims.
however you do try to take over the forum with your threads, and as this is a forum, i'm allowed to state my opinion.ok
 
((SUFI)))...may i ask of you again. actually the last time i lost the part of the thread you may have replied to me. sometimes i cant access threadl also if pages get to long, due to the limitationsof my system--small memory

ok, i had asked you what you thought--or Sufism thought about homosexuality, and the whole range of 'Queerdom, from transexual to transexual, lesbians etc? practising? is it acceptable of it?

secondly...all this talk about seeing beyond the 5 senses. this really means expanded awareness, and this can be gooten from partaking of hallucinogens
How does Sufism feel about hallucinogens

that is two questions. i await a reply
 
duendy said:
((SUFI)))...may i ask of you again. actually the last time i lost the part of the thread you may have replied to me. sometimes i cant access threadl also if pages get to long, due to the limitationsof my system--small memory

ok, i had asked you what you thought--or Sufism thought about homosexuality, and the whole range of 'Queerdom, from transexual to transexual, lesbians etc? practising? is it acceptable of it?

secondly...all this talk about seeing beyond the 5 senses. this really means expanded awareness, and this can be gooten from partaking of hallucinogens
How does Sufism feel about hallucinogens

that is two questions. i await a reply
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http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38406&page=1&pp=40

hallucino.... a type of paranormal peceptions among many categories, which is unhealty, is often ego-centric or satanic (jinnal) rahther than spiritual. The jinn are invisible creatures sharing the same space with humans and they can exert influence on human brains and cause some visions. It is important to discern the source to call it hallucino....
 
((Sufi)))...ok, for simplicity sake i will leave further discusion about Queedom for that other thread you reminded me of, and concentrate in this one about your/sufis views about hallucinogens

I notice that your warnings are entirely commensurate with early Christian warnings about hallucinogens, as belonging to the "Devil" and "evil spririts". apparently christian misssionaries have spread this propaganda to indeigenous people they came across who used hallucinogens as their sacrament

What I though see as wrong is your indoctrination AGAINST freedom to use hallucinogens, and your demonizing of their insights.
If one was to survey the ACTUAL happenings round the world..let's say focussing on the present conflict between West and Middle East.....Christianity and Islam. not an hallucinogen in sight. i dont think they are takin them do you? YET, SUCH evil

you may say that that is because they dont follow the correct understand ing of sufism, yeah? But you share the same MEANING of 'Allah' with the other Islamists don't you? which is "submission"...in fact you actually drive in that belief with the term 'servants of Allah' ....what ever 'he' says must be, right? to me that idea is fascism. it breeds fascism. that i must forgo my spritual explorations say with hallucinogens--such has been dome for millenia by many indigenous people. all of that history sufism demonizes. all the insights from hallucinogens you equate with demons misleading.

i am sure Sufi, if you really delved more deeply into your history you too would find use of hallucinogens. WHAt they were used for i dont know. i know they CAN and have been used in a divisive way. for example, the ancient Orphics who reformed the originary earth religion of Dionysos, they came up with a divisive philosophy which separated 'spirit' from 'matter'. their saying was "soma sema" meaning "the body a tomb", and thus saw the 'divine spirit' 'trapped' in the body. That idea sounds very similar to the Sufi belief. where you say that wrong actions 'imprison' you in the body
i see all of that doctrine as life-negative. you posit an 'all-good-spirit' and/or 'oneness' and then believe that we are all to give up our uniquenesses and serf to that idea. be servants. this is very dangerous authoritarianism. it creates a fascistic enviroment of conformity. where one is expected to follow the beliefs set down in stone
hallucinogens used wisely sees right through your game. that, i believe, is one of THe main reasons that your game and others like it, demonize them!
 
Sufi - how can anything that goes into the body make one 'unclean'?
Surely it is what comes out of a man that is unclean?

peace

c20
 
Sufi said:
:) Yes, as you said all of our judgements are based in sensory information.

The conception of limit is caused by our perception. There is no concept of limit in reality. Therefore, the ultimate reality without any restriction to ur judgments is limitlessness. Nothing can be thought to be beyond the limitlessness (where there is no concept of beyond even).
Click to expand...

I have highlighted these two responses to show you the incoherency of your thought model. First, you assert that:

a) All our judgements are based upon sensory information.

Then, you assert that:

b) The concept of limit is caused by our percetion (which is sensory based according to (a)).

Finally, you assert that:

c) There is no concept of limit in reality.

Now, my question is, if all our judgements are based on our perceptions, then how can you make the judgement that there is actually limitlessness, since limitlessness isn't within the scope of our perceptions? The contradiction is that, IF all our judgements are based upon sensory percetion, then that same sensory perception that leads us to the concept of limits SHOULD NOT allow us to come to the judgement of limitlessness. Ergo, in asserting that all our judgements are based upon sensory perceptions which convince us of limits, then you should not BE ABLE to assert that there is actually limitlessness.
 
beyondtimeandspace said:
Now, my question is, if all our judgements are based on our perceptions, then how can you make the judgement that there is actually limitlessness, since limitlessness isn't within the scope of our perceptions?
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You found out the way out of our cocoons spun by the sensory information. :)

We have clarified that basic reality is not limited to our perception and is therefore Limitless for us. And also that the Limitless cannot be a God.

Now.. First, the limitlessness is not a judgment based on our perception but rather based on our unperception, it is an intellectual reasoning. Therfore the Limitless or "Allah" is just a name that denotes what is unknown to us for ever. To comprehend it is to comphend its incomprehensibility.

Second, it shows that we are not completely limited to our sensory tools because there is a way out, which is undependency on the perception tools and the judgments based on them.

Last, the tool that we can employ to shatter that cocoon is belief despite what our senses tell us, in other way of saying, belief in the limitlessness despite our senses tell us the contrary.

Therefore I said, use your tool of belief to shutter your cocoon by believing only in Limitlessness (that was referred to as Allah by Mohammed). Beliefs in other things including any version of god restrict us from experiencing the true reality of ourselves.

Let me also add that belief in the Limitlessness is not an end product, but is an endless process once you initiate.
 
Sufi,

All that you are offering is self delusion. A fantasy belief far beyond factual support. It isn't real but just a dream.
 
Cris said:
Sufi,

All that you are offering is self delusion. A fantasy belief far beyond factual support. It isn't real but just a dream.
Click to expand...

All is a dream. Try to get out :D
 
see you have ducked my hallucinogens inquiry ((sufi)))....? i will however pursue it. mainly because what your spinnin is pure mysticism. asking people to believe in something beYOND the senses. which means it becomes blind faith to some 'big ego' you have concoted which you call 'Allah' or limitlessnesss, etc. to which we have to be--or better, YOU have to be 'slaves' to. Frightful thought.

No, i say. Trust IN sensual experience, not in some abstract higher abstraction which disempowers th believer into yet more slavehood. as though we NEEd more in this world!
hallucinogens are levellers. why your sufism demonizes them, as have other mystical sects--if used in the 'wrong' (ie., meaning 'independent') was is that your beliefs have separated Earth and diversity and plurality from your accpeted fascistic 'oneness'. Thus any Earth oriented wisdom, and insight is deemed demonic.....This pattern is VERY typically shared by most of the mystery schools
 
((Sufi))) i have revived this thread from page 2. it is fine to flit about these forums with your mystical 'revelations', but ALSO a bit of a copout to duck serious questions thrown at you in reponse TO your revelations
 
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