Believe not out of love, but FEAR!

[stretched]

Heres a sales pitch for tithing purposes, brought to you by rational, thinking, Christian folk.

EXCERPT:
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .” Luke 16:23

What you're about to read is hard to believe. . .

We're going to examine the place the Bible calls hell. We'll present documented evidence for a place called hell. Don't take what you're going to read lightly. If what you read is true — YOU COULD BE IN SERIOUS DANGER!"

(from: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

But I think what Bertand Russell said about Jesus is quite accurate.

EXCERPT:
"There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence."

(from: http://www.luminary.us/russell/not_christian.html)

So, would you follow this fine fellow called Jesus?

 

[water]

Yes, Stretched, another stroke of your magnificent genius! Bring everything down to the lowest common denominator!

Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, "In the present life the things we have relations with are numerous, for instance: time, air, locality, food and drink, clothing, sunlight, lamplight, and other necessities of life, none of which, many though they be, are God; that blessed state which we hope for is in need of none of these things, but the Divine Being will become all, and in the stead of all to us, distributing Himself proportionately to every need of that existence. It is plain, too, from the Holy Scriptures that God becomes to those who deserve it, locality and home and clothing and food and drink and light and riches and kingdom, and everything that can be thought of and named that goes to make our life happy" (On the Soul and the Resurrection).

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Source.

 

[stretched]

* `K water. I gave your source a good read. It DESERVES a good read. I think he (Dr. Kalomiros) speaks beautifully. I also note that quite clearly he does not seem to be speaking for mainstream Christianity? Anyone agree/disagree?

* Unfortunately, he speaks from the premise (obviously) of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. So everything is mans choice and fault and not gods choice or fault. So even if omniscient god (I know, I know) created Eden and all the little props for the Fall were present, like the warning, the tree, the sssnake and of course naughty strong-minded Eve, Adam may still have chosen not to eat of the fruit. Yeah right. First BIG problem.

* And this little verse from the book of the omniscient god, clearly supports the above:
Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

* Second BIG problem, is that it is just another interpretation. Dr. Kalimiros believes he has the correct take on events regarding the big picture of Christ and his coming kingdom. And yes, a very clear and strong argument, especially the perverted Westernised state of the church that he describes is quite plausible.

* What he cannot change is the Bible, and the words contained therein. So apologetics aside, the threat of hellfire remains, and the threat of eternal damnation remains. The words, subject to interpretation stand.

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

* And the site ends off with this clearly evangelical piece of art. (after the descriptions of horror)

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE SAVED?

Pray this prayer, and mean it with all your heart.

Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and unless you save me I am lost forever. I thank you for dying for me at Calvary. I come to you now, Lord the best way I know how, and ask you to save me. I now receive you as my Savior. In Jesus Christ Name, Amen.

* Hmmm. Just another interpretation of how to get into gods new kingdom

 

[john smith]

Beliving in love, is, always the best policy, belive out of fear, and you create war.

 

[water]

* `K water. I gave your source a good read. It DESERVES a good read. I think he (Dr. Kalomiros) speaks beautifully. I also note that quite clearly he does not seem to be speaking for mainstream Christianity? Anyone agree/disagree?

* Unfortunately, he speaks from the premise (obviously) of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. So everything is mans choice and fault and not gods choice or fault. So even if omniscient god (I know, I know) created Eden and all the little props for the Fall were present, like the warning, the tree, the sssnake and of course naughty strong-minded Eve, Adam may still have chosen not to eat of the fruit. Yeah right. First BIG problem.

* And this little verse from the book of the omniscient god, clearly supports the above:
Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

Again: Omniscience and creation does not mean that God *predetermined* everyone and everything.

* Second BIG problem, is that it is just another interpretation. Dr. Kalimiros believes he has the correct take on events regarding the big picture of Christ and his coming kingdom.

Yes, "just another interpretation". Is a thing to be discarded because it has many interpretations?
Whom or what do you focus on: God and the Bible, or particular interpretations of them?

* What he cannot change is the Bible, and the words contained therein.

I see no problem with that.

So apologetics aside, the threat of hellfire remains, and the threat of eternal damnation remains. The words, subject to interpretation stand.

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

To those who hate God, God's presence is hell.

* Hmmm. Just another interpretation of how to get into gods new kingdom

But do investigate what you think about interpretations as such.

 

[Light Travelling]

The christianity (bible) is not the only religion that talks of hell. Hindusim has many heavens and hells even buddha talked of heaven and hell.

Try a different model of heaven and hell where they become different levels of consciousness. Hell becomes a lower level of consciousness and existence in which we will experience more suffering and pain, not because god has ordained it so but becuase of our own actions.

We may be reborn into this world to continue in its suffering at differing levels or we may rasie ourselves from this world to release from suffering in heaven.

 

[Light Travelling]

As for the bible, you have to take into account the culture and era it was written in, also that it is mostly written in metaphor. If you try reading everything as literal you wont get anywhere with it.

 

[stretched]

Quote w:
“Again: Omniscience and creation does not mean that God *predetermined* everyone and everything.”

"3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

* WTF?

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"
Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

* WTF?

"10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls - she was told "The older will serve the younger". 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exodus 33:19]"

*WTF?

Quote w:
“Yes, "just another interpretation". Is a thing to be discarded because it has many interpretations?
Whom or what do you focus on: God and the Bible, or particular interpretations of them?”

* No, not necessarily discarded. But which interpretation gets you through the pearlies? Even if I focus on god and the Bible, it is still just MY interpretation. (maybe the Holy Ghost will throw in some help?)

Quote w:
“To those who hate God, God's presence is hell.”

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

* Nope. No mention of gods presence, just a “furnace”. We all know what a furnace is.

Quote w:
“But do investigate what you think about interpretations as such.”

* I hear you.

 

[scorpius]

Again: Omniscience and creation does not mean that God *predetermined* everyone and everything.

sure it does,
If god is omniscient=all knowing,
then he knows EVERYTHING he knows you wil pray and at what time and whether he will answer your prayer or not etc,so yes its all PREDETERMINED
which would mean you have no Free Will,no choice..
youre just a puppet in the Gods play

so how do those invisible strings feel?

 

[Lori_7]

Hell is not a place of punishment, it's a place that is void of the Holy Spirit. And people are not sentenced to hell, they choose to go there and stay there because they don't want anything to do with God. They deny Him, so appropriately they are in a place where He "doesn't exist". They refuse a relationship with Him, so appropriately they are in a place where He does not dwell. That's why I say be careful what you desire, because that's exactly what you're gonna get. Reminds me of that song that goes "You wasted life, why wouldn't you waste death?" That's a cool song.

 

[the preacher]

I can understand why you would thing thats a kewl song, it's appropriate to how your life is at present.
another kewl song is Imagine, by john lennon.

 

[Lori_7]

I can understand why you would thing thats a kewl song, it's appropriate to how your life is at present.
another kewl song is Imagine, by john lennon.

Speak for yourself. You don't know jack about my life. Next time you post, I dare you to actually contribute something interesting, relevant, and/or constructive to the topic being discussed, instead of just hurling empty insults.

 

[Dug-T]

Religious people are largely weak minded yes, usually when they are at their weakest they fold under reality and believe in a god, for instance i went through suicidal depression when i was 15 after being threatened with murder etc, and i started thinking about less that rational things, as in i was fucking nuts.

I came out of it stronger as a athiest.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Dug-T: Religious people are largely weak minded yes, usually when they are at their weakest they fold under reality and believe in a god, for instance i went through suicidal depression when i was 15 after being threatened with murder etc, and i started thinking about less that rational things, as in i was fucking nuts.

I came out of it stronger as a athiest.
*************
M*W: Good for you!

 

[Ebed]

sure it does,
If god is omniscient=all knowing,
then he knows EVERYTHING he knows you wil pray and at what time and whether he will answer your prayer or not etc,so yes its all PREDETERMINED
which would mean you have no Free Will,no choice..
youre just a puppet in the Gods play

so how do those invisible strings feel?

God does know everything, and He does know if someone will pray, etc. But I am not being forced to worship Him or even believe in Him. I do it out of love. We do choose what we want to do everyday. Do you not choose to avoid Him. We do have freewill for example you choose to live how you want to.
Peace
Ebed El Olam

 

[water]

stretched,

“Again: Omniscience and creation does not mean that God *predetermined* everyone and everything.”

"3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

* WTF?

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"
Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

* WTF?

"10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls - she was told "The older will serve the younger". 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exodus 33:19]"

*WTF?

How you interpret a biblical passage depends on your overall understanding of the Bible, and on whether you believe God to be wicked, or loving.

Also, the Bible is not a logico-philosophical tractate where each entry could be read per se, reagrdless of context. The premises are not layed out in such a form where the main premise would carry the number 1, and further premises 1.1, 1.2; and then further 1.1.1, 1.2.1, etc. For an example, see Wittgenstein's "Logico-philosophical tractate" to get a sense for what such a text is like. The Bible is nothing like that, maybe only a few short passages; therefore, it should not be read as a logico-philosophical tractate.

In my perspective, God's predestination refers to the standards God has set beforehand, and if one meets them, one becomes God's chosen.

Like at school, the standards are known beforehand, and if you meet them, then you become chosen, in accordance with those standards. What is predetermined are the standards and *what* *it* *takes* *to* *meet* them. This doesn't mean it is predetermined by name which students will meet them. It is predetermined that if a student has 91% at test X, then the student will be chosen to advance into an upper class.

God has predetermined what a person's heart is to be like that they can come into heaven.


The Esau story shows that poor character is not tolerable, and God has set this standard beforehand. When Jacob asked of Esau to give him his birthrights in exchange for food, Esau let himself be extorted this way. Jacob's offer was unfair, but Esau went for it. Namely, as we later see, the birthright was important to Esau (when it turns out that Jacob got it), but he has not cherished it -- until it was too late.

* No, not necessarily discarded. But which interpretation gets you through the pearlies? Even if I focus on god and the Bible, it is still just MY interpretation. (maybe the Holy Ghost will throw in some help?)

Yes. You are ultimately left to yourself to make up your mind. This is *the* burden of free will.

“To those who hate God, God's presence is hell.”

Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

* Nope. No mention of gods presence, just a “furnace”. We all know what a furnace is.

Is the Bible a logico-philosophical tractate?


* * *

scorpius,

sure it does,
If god is omniscient=all knowing,
then he knows EVERYTHING he knows you wil pray and at what time and whether he will answer your prayer or not etc,so yes its all PREDETERMINED
which would mean you have no Free Will,no choice..
youre just a puppet in the Gods play

so how do those invisible strings feel?

You say this because you insist God is wicked.

The main problem with pretermination is not some causal predetermination as such. The main problem is that God is powerful. Humans tend to resent ANY power that is greater than theirs. The existence of a being more powerful than them fills them with resentment, and they feel trapped.

The same kind of resentment is felt towards nature and the universe -- tsunamis strike, volcanoes errupt, asteroids can hit the Earth, etc. and there is nothing we could do to prevent this -- who wouldn't be resentful?! We feel we are left to the mercy of coincidence and cosmic powers and because we ultimately cannot fight them, we feel we are predetermined.

 

[stretched]

Hi Lori (always great to have you around ),

Quote Lori:
“Hell is not a place of punishment, it's a place that is void of the Holy Spirit.”

Yep, I hear what you say, and I kinda understand your thinking. I am not sure exactly how you come to your conclusions thought, I would assume it is a matter of your faith and subjective experience of your god. The Bible though is clear regarding what “hell” is via the many literal descriptions. If hell was merely a place devoid of god, why is this not stated in so many words? And why is hell consistently described in a horror story mode? Love and horror don’t make comfy bedfellows. If I want my kid (for his own safety) to respect my wishes, I don’t threaten him with a “gnashing of teeth” etc. See what I mean? The Christians in the website above are in no uncertain terms using the “fear of god” to gain converts. I remain nauseated.

Allcare.

 

[stretched]

Quote w:
“How you interpret a biblical passage depends on your overall understanding of the Bible, and on whether you believe God to be wicked, or loving.”

* Yes, I can see your POV. I see the OT god as very wicked. The NT makes no sense in relation to the OT. If Jesus is supposed to be the god of the OT, then I am utterly confused, apart from invoking my knowledge of schizophrenia to reconcile these two characters.

Quote w:
“Also, the Bible is not a logico-philosophical tractate where each entry could be read per se, reagrdless of context. The premises are not layed out in such a form where the main premise would carry the number 1, and further premises 1.1, 1.2; and then further 1.1.1, 1.2.1, etc. For an example, see Wittgenstein's "Logico-philosophical tractate" to get a sense for what such a text is like. The Bible is nothing like that, maybe only a few short passages; therefore, it should not be read as a logico-philosophical tractate.”

* Simply, WHY should it not read as a logico-philosophical tractate? Surely given the importance of our souls, it should be crystal clear and simple to understand?

Quote w:
“In my perspective, God's predestination refers to the standards God has set beforehand, and if one meets them, one becomes God's chosen.”

* This perspective requires some serious mental callisthenics, but is achievable per se. But the Bible is far from clear on this conclusion, and the word choice does not help your viewpoint. (yes I know of your language issue, but this is a serious book, no games allowed here, god should know better.)

Quote w:
“God has predetermined what a person's heart is to be like that they can come into heaven.”

* That’s a nice sentiment, and logical were the context different, but naive if you look at the words and their implication below:

“29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

* Note the logic here... God has called certain people according to what God wants to get done, and these people love God. God then "works for the good" of these people. It is not that these people have acted well and have then accepted God: People are predestined to be "conformed" to Jesus. These people are predestined to love God. It doesn't matter about their free will or whether they wanted to accept Jesus, or even if they believe in Jesus or not. God "predestined, called, justified and glorified" those who it chose, not those who chose God. See the problem here? These words and their implication cannot be wished away.

Quote w:
“Yes. You are ultimately left to yourself to make up your mind. This is *the* burden of free will.”

* Thank god (oops!) for that. I can comfortably dump the absurd, and embrace what makes sense.

Quote w:
“Is the Bible a logico-philosophical tractate?”

* How many Christians are believers “only” because of the fear of hell? Out of all the books out there, the Bible (regarding the implications for the soul) should be crystal clear. To be easily understood, not only by the chosen, but also by those seeking. There are plenty of religious works available that are a shiteload clearer in their message.

Quote w: (butting in here ok?)
“The main problem is that God is powerful. Humans tend to resent ANY power that is greater than theirs. The existence of a being more powerful than them fills them with resentment, and they feel trapped.”

* But you are aware, that there is no actual, verifiable evidence of gods power at work, thus no reason to feel trapped, unless we choose to feel trapped.

Quote w:
“The same kind of resentment is felt towards nature and the universe -- tsunamis strike, volcanoes errupt, asteroids can hit the Earth, etc. and there is nothing we could do to prevent this -- who wouldn't be resentful?! We feel we are left to the mercy of coincidence and cosmic powers and because we ultimately cannot fight them, we feel we are predetermined. “

* And here we have the crux of the matter. Because we are so vulnerable in the face of nature, we create gods to make sense of it all. And we have the bonus of being able to “blame” others for these events, like the “sinners” amongst us. Ain’t mankind sad?

Allcare

 

[Lori_7]

Hi Lori (always great to have you around ),

Quote Lori:
“Hell is not a place of punishment, it's a place that is void of the Holy Spirit.”

Yep, I hear what you say, and I kinda understand your thinking. I am not sure exactly how you come to your conclusions thought, I would assume it is a matter of your faith and subjective experience of your god. The Bible though is clear regarding what “hell” is via the many literal descriptions. If hell was merely a place devoid of god, why is this not stated in so many words? And why is hell consistently described in a horror story mode? Love and horror don’t make comfy bedfellows. If I want my kid (for his own safety) to respect my wishes, I don’t threaten him with a “gnashing of teeth” etc. See what I mean? The Christians in the website above are in no uncertain terms using the “fear of god” to gain converts. I remain nauseated.

Allcare.

Hi Stretched, and thanks. A place that is void of God and the presence of His Holy Spirit would then fit the horrible descriptions in the Bible. It's like here in this world, good and evil exist together, but there, they exist separately...it's either one or the other, no in between. Which makes sense that we experience both here so that we can make a choice about what we want there. Go and take a peek at the "God is a moron" thread if you can stomach it, and find out what it is that some people want and why.

 

[water]

Stretched,


You have decided that God is wicked, and you will read everything that way. You stubbornly cling on to your position, and you have decided that nothing can move you from it. "The Bible is a logico-philosophical tractate because Stretched says so."
There is no point in talking to you.
Go fuck yourself.