'belief and faith' must be involved

[Bishadi]

IN what?

Please, can someone share where 'belief and faith must be involved' in life.

belief in puff the magic dragon?

or perhaps faith that godzilla is not 'puff'?


that quoted comment confused me. It made me think someone is actually convinced that 'beliefs and faith' are the last word which in itself requires an assumption before accounding truth.

am i reading something wrong in that, can someone please assist in 'understanding' what the thread (title) ideology would impose? (to the children)

 

[Lori_7]

i'm a huge fan of experience myself. i think beliefs are drawn from experience. for example, even though i've never jumped off a thirty story building, my faith in gravity keeps me from doing it. but i find it's best not to try to interpret things too much.

 

[(Q)]

IN what?

Please, can someone share where 'belief and faith must be involved' in life.

belief in puff the magic dragon?

or perhaps faith that godzilla is not 'puff'?


that quoted comment confused me. It made me think someone is actually convinced that 'beliefs and faith' are the last word which in itself requires an assumption before accounding truth.

am i reading something wrong in that, can someone please assist in 'understanding' what the thread (title) ideology would impose? (to the children)

Most confuse the "faith" of that which is based on observation and evidence with the "faith" in myths and superstitions.

Lori's post on gravity would confirm that.

 

[Hapsburg]

Even despite her mistake in that regard, she makes a good point that personal experiences is largely what determines beliefs and faith in unverifiable things. Since experience is different from one to another, there as many belief systems as there are people. And since personal experience is, well, personal, you can't prove or disprove the impressions it makes.

 

[lightgigantic]

IN what?

Please, can someone share where 'belief and faith must be involved' in life.

belief in puff the magic dragon?

or perhaps faith that godzilla is not 'puff'?


that quoted comment confused me. It made me think someone is actually convinced that 'beliefs and faith' are the last word which in itself requires an assumption before accounding truth.

am i reading something wrong in that, can someone please assist in 'understanding' what the thread (title) ideology would impose? (to the children)

feel free to introduce a "truth" that doesn't touch on any issue of belief and faith and perhaps we can start from there

 

[(Q)]

feel free to introduce a "truth" that doesn't touch on any issue of belief and faith and perhaps we can start from there

Gravity.

 

[Bishadi]

Gravity.

entangled energy between mass

 

[Bishadi]

Even despite her mistake in that regard, she makes a good point that personal experiences is largely what determines beliefs and faith in unverifiable things. Since experience is different from one to another, there as many belief systems as there are people. And since personal experience is, well, personal, you can't prove or disprove the impressions it makes.

and some wonder why i love the esoteric; great post!

 

[Bishadi]

feel free to introduce a "truth" that doesn't touch on any issue of belief and faith and perhaps we can start from there

then i would not be posting in a religious section


more people are bound to belief and faith, then truth

maybe the best way to learn more, is to listen from the few who are will to articulate their needs so they can be addressed; perhaps to assist 'others' before they give in to the complacent regimes of belief over truth


i like to learn, especially from the childs questions

 

[lightgigantic]

then i would not be posting in a religious section


more people are bound to belief and faith, then truth

then perhaps you can indicate a truth that doesn't touch on issues of belief or faith

maybe the best way to learn more, is to listen from the few who are will to articulate their needs so they can be addressed; perhaps to assist 'others' before they give in to the complacent regimes of belief over truth

then perhaps you can indicate a stance that isn't "influenced" by any issues of belief or faith

i like to learn, especially from the childs questions

what do you believe is so special about a child's questions?

 

[lightgigantic]

Gravity.

here's 5 beliefs underlying gravity.

1. the universe is rational - can be determined by systems of logic
2. the universe is accessible - we have the means to interact with the universe
3. the universe is contingent - relationships of cause and effect operate within parameters
4. the universe is objective - exists independent and indifferent to sense perception
5. the universe is unified - nothing can be "separated" from the universe

feel free to offer another example of another truth that doesn't touch on issues of belief or faith.

 

[Sarkus]

here's 5 beliefs underlying gravity.

LG, do you understand the difference between "belief" and "assumption"?

 

[(Q)]

here's 5 beliefs underlying gravity.

1. the universe is rational - can be determined by systems of logic
2. the universe is accessible - we have the means to interact with the universe
3. the universe is contingent - relationships of cause and effect operate within parameters
4. the universe is objective - exists independent and indifferent to sense perception
5. the universe is unified - nothing can be "separated" from the universe

feel free to offer another example of another truth that doesn't touch on issues of belief or faith.

The example I gave hasn't been resolved as yet, unless you actually believe your response is a valid response. I suspect you do, but you have not provided beliefs, only assumptions, as Sarkus has pointed out.

Thanks for playing, though.

 

[Lori_7]

LG, do you understand the difference between "belief" and "assumption"?

by definition, a belief is the acceptance of truth of something, and an assumption is something taken for granted, or that is believed to be true without proof.

 

[Bishadi]

then perhaps you can indicate a truth that doesn't touch on issues of belief or faith

em (light) is the life between all mass; from there existence unfolds itself (Life, nature, existence; within knowledge (math) can be understood)

then perhaps you can indicate a stance that isn't "influenced" by any issues of belief or faith

be honest with truth

less self before the total (others/life) (true compassion; defined)

base rules (as learned by combining knowledge)

life; purposed to continue

choices (of the consciously aware);

good: supports life to continue (give for life)

bad: loss to the common (of self; pockets, etc..)

what do you believe is so special about a child's questions?

most don't lie or are biased, they just want to understand ('we' were all one of 'them', once)


here is an example of one that is a shocker: (but an eye opener if you just answer your own questions honestly)

"if Jesus was said to die for our sins, what happens now? He didn't stay dead."


the kid educated me in the sense, that if no one can answer them questions honestly, then the reality (truth) is not available (nothing can rely on magic as the cause; (to me), otherwise i have more work to do)

here is a fun one for anyone on the globe to try;

it seems perhaps the 'baghdad batteries' were not so tough to figure out (just a few weeks back);

perhaps they are for light - electrolysis of water; to H and O which can be burned; and at the depths of the tombs with low oxygen, its a perfect fit and controllable. Then when mixed with Na, K, etc..... many (flavors) colors.

anyone can try it just make sure the surface area of the + - into the water (electrolysis) are larger than the surface area of the total anode (DC)

use OJ for your elctrolyte; call it free energy in a sense of egyptian days
(they didn't have the wood supplies in the desert)


i tink it's the correct use of the batteries as well now anyone can see and perhaps 'understand' the basics of 'how it works'.....

(archeologists have found thousands of them)...

"i still got it" (just a potsy)

 

[Bishadi]

here's 5 beliefs underlying gravity.

1. the universe is rational - can be determined by systems of logic

nothing to do with gravity

2. the universe is accessible - we have the means to interact with the universe

i piss in the woods too

3. the universe is contingent - relationships of cause and effect operate within parameters

and not even Newton knew what gravity was (not very causal eh?)

4. the universe is objective - exists independent and indifferent to sense perception

'exists' is indifferent but a mind of perception can impose cause (consciousness)

5. the universe is unified - nothing can be "separated" from the universe

awesome.................fact!

we can think we are away from the garden, but that's a lie

feel free to offer another example of another truth that doesn't touch on issues of belief or faith.

only one line in your post had any gravity to it

 

[Bishadi]

by definition, a belief is the acceptance of truth

then it's "assumed"........ if without foundation

of something, and an assumption is something taken for granted, or that is believed to be true without proof.

a belief


ex.... that person assumed they spoke with god because they believed in the occurance (experience) even without proof of the cause.

 

[lightgigantic]

nothing to do with gravity

If that was the case, predicting the behavior of objects affected by gravity would be impossible. If you have plans tomorrow (and thus don't anticipate the moon dropping out of orbit or the sun spinning off and ending life as we know it on earth) then you are in agreement with me

i piss in the woods too

and you could also measure the rate your piss falls to the ground and draw conclusions about gravity too

and not even Newton knew what gravity was (not very causal eh?)

err ... yet somehow newtonian physics is sufficient to get a space shuttle into orbit

'exists' is indifferent but a mind of perception can impose cause (consciousness)

If that was the case one could overcome gravity simply by thinking about it. Feel free to justify your belief by jumping off a building ....

awesome.................fact!

we can think we are away from the garden, but that's a lie

Its also a lie to think that we are all that the garden entails.

Big difference in acknowledging that one is part of a whole as opposed to saying one is the whole

only one line in your post had any gravity to it

 

[lightgigantic]

LG, do you understand the difference between "belief" and "assumption"?

A belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderence of the facts.

The moment you start talking about assumptions being held by individuals is the moment you have beliefs.

If you disagree, feel free to indicate a belief that has no assumptions or an assumption that doesn't have any beliefs.

 

[Sarkus]

A belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderence of the facts.

The moment you start talking about assumptions being held by individuals is the moment you have beliefs.

If you disagree, feel free to indicate a belief that has no assumptions or an assumption that doesn't have any beliefs.

A belief is a claim of truth with regard a premise / proposition without proof.

An assumption makes no claim as to the actual truth value of the premise - it merely assigns the truth value to the premise and in doing so limits the validity of any conclusion using that assumption to the scenarios where the assumption is valid.

In other words it is the assigning of a truth value to a conditional for purpose of further inquiry within the scope of the assumption, removing the need to investigate the validity of the assumption for the inquiry to proceed.


As for examples... beliefs I would see almost as a subset of assumptions... i.e. they are assumptions that are not only assigned truth value for certain scenarios but for ALL scenarios.

However, assumptions are not always beliefs...

E.g. Let's assume that Bob had an apple, and let us assume that Bob liked Mary, then we could conclude that Bob might decide to give Mary his apple.

At no point in this is there a need to believe that Bob has an apple, or that Bob likes Mary.

However, should the assumptions be truth in reality, then the conclusion would be truth in reality. Should the assumptions not be truth in reality then the conclusion is inapplicable.

Science works on assumptions.
Most people, I would argue, work on assumptions rather than beliefs:
Experience provides the groundwork... e.g. if I kick a brick wall, my foot hurts. I make the assumption that if I kick another brick wall then my foot will again hurt. I kick the wall again and my foot hurts again. The more experience I build up that tests the assumption the more I build up the applicability / scope of the assumption.
But at what point does it become a belief?
Probably at the point you consider it impossible that if you ever kick a wall that it will not hurt? I'm not sure, though. Here it probably gets more into semantics and what people consider to be "belief".

However, some would reach the point of belief without going through the evidence at all - and just rely on someone else's testimony.