Bashing republican\democrats thread

You just have to admire people that make their opinions sound like arguments, but then leave the room without actually showing any verifiable facts.

Pfft. And then there are people who are rude to others just to save themselves a trip to Google.

The famous "The Truth" refutation, in PDF format, is available here:
http://www.filestash.net/The_Truth.pdf

It's a huge collection, over a megabyte of text, fully annotated and cross-referenced.

So there.
 
When the U.S. suddenly decided (when Bush was president mind you), that it wasn't going to support the Koyoto protocol - which is meaned to reduce greenhouse gas emmisions, I was suddenly swayed in my opinion and faith for the future....

Come on, we're already witnessing changing weather patterns, seemingly getting slightly worse year after year, and still, the U.S., who leads the world, is making absolutely NO PROPER attempts to correct the situation!!!

I am truly disgusted.

We'll be having fun when things start collapsing in about 40 years time.
With $500 for a litre of oil or something..

PEACE.
 
Is it me or does that resumé get shorter and simpler every time we see it?
 
I think you need to change the name of this thread to just Bush bashing. The problem most of these Vietnam Vets have with Kerry isn't so much what he did in Vietnam, but what he did when he got back. Accusing the US military of atrocities on par with Genghis Khan whose policy was to kill every man, woman, and child in his path. As one vet said in one of the swiftboat ads, he gave the enemy for free what POW's endured torture and still refused to give them. You can't trust a man who turns on his own.
 
"You can't trust a man who turns on his own."

I agree. Kerry's life has exhibited a telling flip-flop on criticizing wrongful warfare and the war crimes that result when American troops are placed into the gut-wrenching position of being committed to a situation lacking any possible honorable military outcome.

I don't trust Kerry, because he lacks the courage and leadership to unequivocally condemn our occupation of Iraq. At the same time, I understand his pragmatic compromise, because the American majority is still unwilling to confront the injustice and folly of our Vietnam and Iraq quagmires. Anyone with honesty about such issues is unelectable, because America remains in denial about our place in the world. Many difficult compromises and failures are ahead because of illusions that only consequences, and not Presidencies, are going to awaken America to.
 
Accusing the US military of atrocities on par with Genghis Khan whose policy was to kill every man, woman, and child in his path.

are you suggesting that the american involvement in the vietnam war was executed perfectly whilst observing rules of engagement?
 
Where have the 'old enough to vote generations' been in the past 30 years?

Out of every war in the history of the U.S., Viet-Nam is one of the only conflicts that:

1- Lasted so many years (a decade or so)
2- Imposed the draft, and thus had untrained professionnals fighting a war they didn't want to be in.
3- Had the youngest serving army (avg. yrs.) in the history of the U.S.
4- Employed non-orthodox tactics to win be fought and won (agent orange, destruction of weapon caches hidden in coerced villages, unclear definition of the enemy -ei: who are the VC?-)
5- They fought an enemy which was ten fold more motivated than the american soldiers and which was better suited to wage long-term guerrilla warfare.
and
6- Is renowned for leaving veterans with a deep sense of injustice (be it social or political at home)


All of these factors which are invariably attributed to the viet-nam war -and I won't get in what some people in Hollywood has shown us about the war- demonstrates to me that the Viet-Nam war was the first conflict which both sides thought each other how to fight belowe the belt, and resulted in the transformation of conventional warfare throughout the world.

This said, I would not be surprised that unmotivated, unwilling and demoralized individuals would result in drastic measures to vent their stress and frustrations. The trainees in Abu Graib did it and they weren't even under significant war-time pressure... they were in a jail!!!

Finally, I cannot understand veterans and non-veterans alike that interpret these allegations (or even evidences) as some sort of rogue branding of all the soldiers who went in viet-nam. I think nobody ever believed or said that every single viet-nam vet or even the majority of them were war criminals and were dishonorable to the military.. except maybe some hippies in the 70's which I think we all know Kerry was not and nothing shows that he was.
In any case, how can you 'turn' on your own people if you are telling the truth? Why not own up to what some have chosen to do and not downplay or exagerate the honor of an entire army composed of a myriad of different types of individuals?

In conclusion, except for certain people who were admitted to the Texas air reserve with a 24/100 flight test result and who miraculously passed more than thousands of names on a waiting list in order to make his high elect father feeling his son is safe... I have not been demonstrated that military records were so often/easily manipulated. If the army said that they were satisfied with Kerry in the 70's why should we doubt their findings 30 years later? I mean, everything was written down and approved by officers and commanding officers; you'd think people wouldn't get american medals while doing nothing right?
I just think that the media and people seem to be more concerned about wild accusations (swift boat ads) which are contradicted by the written facts and military approved facts.

I'm not saying the militray never made a mistake. But it would have to be quite a conspiracy, one to which no real motive could be given, to have the entire army system lie about what its soldiers were or were not doing... especially in the regular army (ei: not Navy seals or delta force).

Prisme
 
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I think that Howard Dean had far superior ideas to his.

If there were two candidates in the primaries who could not be more similar in both ideology and background, it's Dean and Kerry. Probably explains why they were such rivals. They were both the liberal NE candidates with left-centrist views. Dean may have opposed the Iraq war, but his plan was to finish the job, just like Kerry's. Dean was also pro-civil unions, not pro-gay marriage (leave it to the states), which is Kerry's position. Dean was also a fiscal conservative, and Kerry's advocating a balanced budget. There's no real difference between them really, 'cept one's kinda stocky and loud and the other's lanky and Catholic.

The problem most of these Vietnam Vets have with Kerry isn't so much what he did in Vietnam, but what he did when he got back. Accusing the US military of atrocities on par with Genghis Khan whose policy was to kill every man, woman, and child in his path. As one vet said in one of the swiftboat ads, he gave the enemy for free what POW's endured torture and still refused to give them. You can't trust a man who turns on his own.

Yeah, and that's what they did.

If those particular veterans thought Vietnam was the greatest war in the world and hated Kerry for leading the protests against it, then they should've come up with an ad that said "We, who are Vietnam veterans, will vote for Bush because we disagreed with Kerry's march in the National Mall, etc." But that wasn't cutting enough was it? What they actually did was concoct lies that are easily refuted by first-hand accounts and U.S. Navy records and pass them off as truth. Now that virtually every reliable news source has proved them false, they will try and weasel their way into questioning Kerry's protest record. The fact that they lied repeatedly on national television should not be forgiven.
 
Outside in the Rain

Source: Washington Post
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37224-2004Aug26.html
Title: "The Pressure-Cooker Theory"
Date: August 27, 2004

Upon losing a game at the 1925 Baden-Baden tournament, Aaron Nimzowitsch, the great chess theoretician and a superb player, knocked the pieces off the board, jumped on the table and screamed, "How can I lose to this idiot?"

Nimzowitsch may have lived decades ago in Denmark, but he had the soul of a modern American Democrat. After all, Democrats have been saying much the same -- with similar body language -- ever since the erudite Adlai Stevenson lost to the syntactically challenged Dwight Eisenhower in 1952. They said it again when they lost to that supposed simpleton Ronald Reagan. Twice, would you believe? With George W. Bush, they are at it again, and equally apoplectic.

Actually, this time around, even more apoplectic . . . .

. . . . What if Bush is reelected? If they lose to him again, Democrats will need more than just consolation. They'll need therapy.


Source: Washington Post

Man be a man, tell me what's on your mind.
If you take a little chance
Who knows what you'll find?
I can give you all the reasons
But I can't make you think;
You can lead a horse to water
But you can't make him drink.


Tommy Shaw

Krauthammer's victimizing Democrats for being human. 'Tis a shame because Democrats need only embrace their humanity in order to be real Democrats.

In the meantime, Democrats win when people think; liberalism is the greater intellectual challenge as well as the greater societal reward. Of course, Krauthammer, in his zeal to tack the Democrats to the wall, seems to overlook the diverse range of people who are angry with Bush for something or another. If Krauthammer wonders about the level of venom, it may be so simple as that's what George W. Bush inspires in people by his example.

And that's a lot of venom invested in the opposition to George W. Bush. Of course it's still a funny article.
____________________

• Krauthammer, Charles. "The Pressure-Cooker Theory." Washington Post, August 27, 2004; page A21. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37224-2004Aug26.html
 
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Undecided said:
am i that "partisan" that i can't look at it objectively?


Is that a question, or a statement?

It would be interesting to see how many posters here have served in the military much less VNam.

I was at Ft Brag when I was called to report to the Col. I reported and he said have a seat. I sat down and he then said I have a problem, and pushes some papers my way.

He then said I have two sets of orders here for you. One you can start clearing post today and attend Nuke School or you can start clearing post today and go with us to VNam.

My response was "You mean I have a choice?"

I choose getting an education. Though I lost contact with them and don't know, I suspect that many of my former friends got killed.

Am I embarassed about my choice. Not for a minute. Would I have served had I not been given that faithful choice? You bet.

I of course have no direct knowledge about Kerry's service but I do know Vets, including my brother-in-law, that was shot up pretty good. They were overrun and he dragged a Lt that had been shot into a fox hole and he manned a machinegun all night fending of VC.

The next morning at daylight support arrived and he learned that he and the Lt were the only ones left alive. He was shot up pretty good and got several metals but for years he refused to discuss his service.

Finally he began to talk about it and you know what, there were a lot of jerks and war criminals in the US Forces there. From stories I have heard John Kerry may have been telling it like it was.

Certainly there were good men there and most did not commit atrocities but some did and that was what he objected to, as he should.

Now we have a president that has his legal team re-interpreting the Geneva Convention and treatment of prisoners; you can see the results from that filter down to the political mess in Iraq over prisoner abuse.

Don't miss judge me. I have no sympothy for the bastards but my point is the leadership issue. GWB is dangerous to your liberties gentlemen.

I detest gay marriage etc, but GWB wants to amend the constitution. The far right will amend the constitution until you have the right to do as they say and no more.

I'll vote for Kerry even if he has exagerated and lied.

Bush has lied to us all and has gotten how many good men killed?

Again don't misinterprete. I favor kicking ass over there but I favor doing it without costing the lives of our men. It called nuke the bastards.
 
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I'll vote for Kerry even if he has exagerated and lied.

Bush has lied to us all and has gotten how many good men killed?

Great point. In some RW fantasy world where the SBVT are actually telling the truth and Kerry did lie, at least he was in a position to lie, unlike Bush who lies about showing up for duty in the Texas National Air Guard during those hazy months.

How stupid can people get? I mean for God's sakes! John Kerry put his ass on the line in Vietnam even though he was a "spoiled little richboy" like Bush. The big difference between these two elites was that one risked his life in something he thought was right, and one didn't. Some polls show that people are viewing Kerry as less honest and less admirable in light of the filthy swift boat liars' ads. Hey guys, how about the biggest, most recent liar in our collective memory? Remember George W. Bush and his WMDs? Hell, he burned valuable bridges, smeared the American nameplate, and directly caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people, but hey, since he's a "Christian" and we can hypothetically have a beer with him, why not make him a president once more?
 
Hey guys, how about the biggest, most recent liar in our collective memory? Remember George W. Bush and his WMDs?

BS. If Bush lied, so did Kerry, Clinton, Gore and pretty much everyone else with an opinion on the subject. Saying Bush lied is like saying I lied when I f--ked up an organic chemisty test. To say Bush lied you would have to show that he knew there were no WMD's before the invasion.

Again don't misinterprete. I favor kicking ass over there but I favor doing it without costing the lives of our men. It called nuke the bastards.
You think Kerry's gonna nuke the bastards? He won't do anything without the approval of the UN and France. It will be open season on Americans with Kerry in office.
I detest gay marriage etc, but GWB wants to amend the constitution. The far right will amend the constitution until you have the right to do as they say and no more.
First of all, the ammendment will never be approved. Ammending the constitution is too much of a pain in the ass. However, without some kind of ammendment, gay marriage will probably soon be the law of land due to the full faith and credit clause of the constitution which requires that all states recognize a marriage performed in any state.

Certainly there were good men there and most did not commit atrocities but some did and that was what he objected to, as he should
I would certainly agree that some atrocities were commited as is the case with any war. But Kerry stated that the atrocities were known about and approved of at all levels of the military command. He wasn't talking about a few "bad apples", but impeaching the entire military.
 
madanthonywayne said:
BS. If Bush lied, so did Kerry, Clinton, Gore and pretty much everyone else with an opinion on the subject. Saying Bush lied is like saying I lied when I f--ked up an organic chemisty test. To say Bush lied you would have to show that he knew there were no WMD's before the invasion.

He was cautioned by the CIA that the information was "Questionable" Hardly a basis to rush to war. He damn well suspected he was exagerating for the express purpose of taking us to war.


You think Kerry's gonna nuke the bastards? He won't do anything without the approval of the UN and France. It will be open season on Americans with Kerry in office.

Unfortunately "No". We are all to politically correct now to do what should be done.

First of all, the ammendment will never be approved. Ammending the constitution is too much of a pain in the ass. However, without some kind of ammendment, gay marriage will probably soon be the law of land due to the full faith and credit clause of the constitution which requires that all states recognize a marriage performed in any state.

The fact that our forefathers had more common sense than we do today andmade it a 2/3 majority to amend the constitution doesn't change the fact that the SOB would if he could change the constitution to force his religious beliefs on this country.

1 - Faith Based Initiative.(Government Handouts to Churches to do what is supposed to be volunteered by the faithful).

2 - School Vouchers (Public Funds given to Religious Schools)

3 - Amend the Constitution to preclude gay unions.

4 - And so on.
 
Compassionate Conservatism

But you think he's(Bush) beatable?

Clinton: The central error he made was in abandoning compassionate conservatism. But I predict that they will try to undo it between now and the election, like they did in Iraq -- it's gonna be an interesting thing to watch.

Geoge W Bush, July 20

Bush Says: 'I Want to Be the Peace President'

George W Bush, July 23

To periodic smatterings of applause from the black audience, he asserted that his prescription of tax relief, education reform and compassionate conservatism is doing far more than the traditional programs of Democrats to address the nation's ills that hit particularly hard at blacks.

George W Bush, August 27

The most disappointing thing about his four years in office has been his inability to change the "harsh environment" in Washington.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&e=7&u=/ap/bush_interview

Rove is a fuggin genius, i'll post more in the future as they keep coming in.
 
madanthonywayne said:
BS. If Bush lied, so did Kerry, Clinton, Gore and pretty much everyone else with an opinion on the subject. Saying Bush lied is like saying I lied when I f--ked up an organic chemisty test. To say Bush lied you would have to show that he knew there were no WMD's before the invasion.
so, where are those WMD's? if they were moved to Syria or Lebonon, then we have a more patethic CIA, than it appears now.


Psssssssst, hey buddy.











BUSH LIED!!!


I would certainly agree that some atrocities were commited as is the case with any war. But Kerry stated that the atrocities were known about and approved of at all levels of the military command. He wasn't talking about a few "bad apples", but impeaching the entire military.
the way the war was run, how could you prove otherwise, under the rules of engagement, we were meant to lose. In Viet Nam, more bombs were dropped than in all of WWII.

When the politicos run a war, they lose it, no matter what tech advantages one side has.


See same in Iraq
 
Being a registered Independent (a distinction generally too nuanced for this membership), the more you spend your party's capital bashing Bush -- because it so makes yourselves feel so, so much better about yourselves, for being so superior to folks who don't deserve to be superior to you, because it's just plain unnatural, and grossly unfair to you -- the less you have to invest in convincing those of us willing to listen that you have something actually worth considering as an operational alternative.

You're all behaving like you're in one massive, fetal-folded, cluster-grope.

Must be why I don't tell anyone I sometimes hang out here.

"Nothing to see, here. Everyone move on. Make way for the coroner. Just move along."
 
BS. If Bush lied, so did Kerry, Clinton, Gore and pretty much everyone else with an opinion on the subject.

If Clinton and Kerry thought there were WMDs in Iraq, they were not the ones who assured the public that a war that was going to cost billions and lots of lives (both American and Iraqi) over faulty evidence and scant diplomacy.
 
Bush and his puppeteers taking towards being a true fascist state? Seems like a radical thing to say . . . but here is an excerpt from "Fascism Anyone?" by Laurence W. Britt.

--------------------------------------

Beyond the visual, even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer, but it is sometimes useful in the interests of perspective to restate obvious facts and in so doing shed needed light on current circumstances.

For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Papadopoulos’s Greece, Pinochet’s Chile, and Suharto’s Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible.

Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.

----------------------------

Full article at:

Free Inquiry Magazine Article
 
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