Bah Bah Black Sheep

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PsychoTropicPuppy: "It's getting out of control."

What is getting out of control? :bugeye:

"Why so negative? Why do people connect everything and anything with racism, Nazism, Hitler, and who knows what else? Islam is not a race so this poster can't reflect the Nazis' message, understood?"

No. It's important that we recognize patterns in human nature. The SVP is appealing in a very similar way to the same cultural insecurities as did the Nazis on the rise.

What is getting out of control? So basically, you don't even know what the problem is in Switzerland? Then there is no point in discussing this with you if you haven't a clue about the situation in Switzerland.

It's important that you realise that Nazism isn't the fundament for everything that concerns certain policies. I suggest, you, yes you, go look up the concerns about immigrants in Switzerland before getting so judgemental, easy enough for you? Hopefully so, because Google isn't hard to play around with.
Sure, if even Google fails you, I'll be willing to expatiate my posts, but until then...:m:
 
What is getting out of control? :bugeye:

PsychoTropicPuppy: "What is getting out of control? So basically, you don't even know what the problem is in Switzerland?"

No, I don't. That's why I'm asking you to explain it here.
 
What is getting out of control? :bugeye:

PsychoTropicPuppy: "What is getting out of control? So basically, you don't even know what the problem is in Switzerland?"

No, I don't. That's why I'm asking you to explain it here.

Hardcore. So you make judgements about a certain matter without basic knowledge about this matter in beforehand? Interesting.

PsychoTropicPuppy: "It's getting out of control."

What is getting out of control? :bugeye:

"Why so negative? Why do people connect everything and anything with racism, Nazism, Hitler, and who knows what else? Islam is not a race so this poster can't reflect the Nazis' message, understood?"

No. It's important that we recognize patterns in human nature. The SVP is appealing in a very similar way to the same cultural insecurities as did the Nazis on the rise.

PsychoTropicPuppy: "It's getting out of control."

What is getting out of control? :bugeye:

Crime rates. Influx of immigrants who are after the Swiss passport but aren't willing to accustom themselves to the country's policies. The statistics show that foreigners are four times more likely to commit crimes than Swiss nationals. Around 22% of Switzerland's population are foreigners. At the end of 2006, 5,888 people were interned in Swiss prisons: 31% Swiss citizens, and 69% resident foreigners or illegal immigrants. Based on convictions under criminal law, the crime rate among resident foreigners is higher by a factor of 3.7 than the crime rate among Swiss citizens.

Do they really have the time to take care of the deviants from foreign countries? No. Immigrants attacking, and spurting up the crime rates in their host country..do the Swiss really need to put up with this? No.

No. It's important that we recognize patterns in human nature. The SVP is appealing in a very similar way to the same cultural insecurities as did the Nazis on the rise.
No. It's not a cultural insecurity we're speaking of here. It's not bound to cultures. It's bound to the behaviour of immigrants which doesn't have anything to do with where they're coming from, nor what skin colour they have, nor what culture they're from.


________
The following sources are either in German, or French. No, English isn't part of Switzerland's national languages.

STATISTIQUE POLICIERE DE LA CRIMINALITE SPC
STATISTIQUE SUISSE DES STUPEFIANTS
Publication de l’Office fédéral de la police
2006
http://www.fedpol.admin.ch/etc/medi...itaet.Par.0009.File.tmp/PKS_BMS_06_DEF_fr.pdf

POLIZEILICHE KRIMINALSTATISTIK PKS
SCHWEIZERISCHE BETÄUBUNGSMITTELSTATISTIK
Publikation des Bundesamtes für Polizei
http://www.fedpol.admin.ch/etc/medi.../kriminalitaet.Par.0012.File.tmp/PKS_08_d.pdf
 
The minarets look like missiles.


"Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion." (erdogan)


Erdogan also conveyed his country's intention to play an "active" diplomatic role in the region and beyond, defining Turkey's foreign policy as "zero conflict with neighbours". Israeli newspapers showered the Turkish prime minister with criticism, accusing him of hypocrisy for claiming to be an honest broker, yet siding with the Palestinians by upholding the Goldstone Report.

This is the same 54-year- old leader who stormed out of the Davos panel in Switzerland in January after a loud exchange with Israeli president Shimon Peres. Erdogan lost his temper when Peres defended his country's stance on Gaza, replying — red in the face — "President Peres, you are old and your voice is loud out of a guilty conscience. When it comes to killing, you know very well how to kill! I know well how you hit and kill children on beaches!"

Earlier in 2004, Erdogan had refused an invitation to visit Israel from then prime minister Ariel Sharon. Instead, he received a delegation from Hamas, headed by Khalid Mesha'al, in Turkey. He next turned down a meeting with then labour and trade minister Ehud Olmert in July 2004 and five months later, landed in Damascus, building bridges with the Syrians after relations soured with the international community, shortly after the UN passed Security Council Resolution 1559.

Erdogan's Turkey has clearly been projecting itself as a mediator and a big sister to countries in the Arab and Muslim world, longing for a position that it once enjoyed as leader of the Islamic nation. (link)



/chuckle

goddamn wacko
 
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Nice link, Gustav. Very informative.

Quote from link:
The Egerkinger committee is made up of members of the Swiss People’s Party and the Federal Democratic Union. The committee opines that the interests of residents, who are disturbed by specific kinds of religious land uses, are to be taken seriously. Moreover, it argues that Swiss residents should be able to block unwanted and unusual projects such as the erection of Islamic minarets. The justification for their actions is founded in belief. The committee alledges, inter alia, that "the construction of a minaret has no religious meaning. Neither in the Qur’an, nor in any other holy scripture of Islam is the minaret expressly mentioned at any rate. The minaret is far more a symbol of religious-political power claim [...]."[4] The initiators justify their point of view by stating parts of the Turkish Prime Minister’s, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, 1997 speech, which holds: "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."[5] Ulrich Schluer, who is one of the Egerkinger committee’s most prominent exponent states in this respect: "A minaret has nothing to do with religion: It just symbolises a place where Islamic law is established."[6] The members of the Egerkinger committee are the following politicians: Ulrich Schluer; Christian Waber; Walter Wobmann; Jasmin Hutter; Oskar Freysinger; Eric Bonjour; Eros N. Mellini; Sylvia Flückiger; Patrick Freudiger; Thomas Fuchs; Andreas Glarner; Lukas Reimann; Natalie Rickli; Cornelia Schaub; Barbara Steinemann; Daniel Zingg.[7]


Is Ulrich Schluer's statement true or not?
"A minaret has nothing to do with religion: It just symbolises a place where Islamic law is established."

I have a feeling that this is rubbish, unless it simply means (duh) that if there is a minaret on a building, then the building is Islamic.
Does the presence of a minaret imply any further territorial claims?
If not, then it is only a symbol of religion, nothing more.
 
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So..after you, Islam is just a religion. Well, for some that may well be, but there are also some who believe that to practice proper Islam one has to create an Islamic state to endorse the Islamic way of life. For some Islam is not just a religion, it's law. For them it's not that superficial kind of religion which you practice in the backyard of your house, but once you leave your house you're just like anyone else. No..it daily guides them through policies, laws, etc. It's by what you'll be judged in an Islamic State. Reason why so many Muslims want Shariah laws getting added to the legal system.

And the issue doesn't lie just within "what purpose those minarets would have once raised". It's also about the question whether it's okay to give those people those privileges which we would never receive in most of the Islamic states. One of the nearest examples of what happens to buildings of an unwelcome religion is North of Cyprus, a place torn apart by the Turks, and where the North of Cyprus is being islamised, so to say. They've destroyed, or shun several Christian buildings - during war, okay, but they're proceeding with this behaviour to this day, and well...read the following:
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/03/cyprus_portrait.php

To the other, the issue isn't solely about the minaret as a construction in itself, but also what it symbolises, and its functionality. It's fully understandable that people wouldn't want to hear, on a daily basis, five times per day a muezzin(by now they use records, as far as I know) recalling people to pray. And as far as I'm concerned a mosque doesn't require a minaret. But the more well-off a Muslim community gets the more assets they want for mosques. Just compare poor regions with rich regions in Islamic states. It's basically to show-off the financial status, and power. Of course, that's understandable - a lot of Christians would, and are doing the same.

And an other factor that may have angered even more Swiss is the fact that Muslims never fall short of expressing threats, whether subtle, or not. So if Muslims are being denied to have minarets, they immediately jump on the bandwagon of "Well, if suddenly a few Islamic extremists plan on letting some bombs explode in Switzerland then don't be surprised! You asked for it after all!"

What's that? So if they don't get their way they will use violence? Fear-mongering at its best.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_di...Sect=104&sid=9322537&cKey=1255930158000&ty=st

And the fact that the anti-minaret poster was branded as racist is just beyond me. People keep on re-defining words just as they see fit. A pity.
 
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I have a feeling that this is rubbish, unless it simply means (duh) that if there is a minaret on a building, then the building is Islamic.
Does the presence of a minaret imply any further territorial claims?
If not, then it is only a symbol of religion, nothing more.

A minaret or minara is probably Turkish in origin and means "lighthouse". The light is switched on during maghrib and is used by Muslims to figure out the time for breaking fast. Its also where the call for prayer used to be issued from [nowadays loudspeakers do a better job] They also provide air natural ventilation according to wiki

Historically, they are distinctive features of mosques, athough the earliest mosques did not have them.

Egypt.Aswan.Mosque.02.jpg
 
Ah...so this excerpt from a page is wrong?

But many characteristics of Islam are bid'a. The establishment of law schools, the study of the hadiths, the dotting of the letters in the Koran, the building of religious schools and adding the minaret to the mosque, are all central elements for which there are is no basis in the Koran or the sunna.


http://lexicorient.com/e.o/bida.htm
 
Of course, its rubbish. The "Koran" itself says to use your brain. The assumption that using your brain itself is a limited option is also bida'a since it is not specified as such in the Qur'an.
 
Please point out the verse that says anything not in Qur'an [forget Sunnah, which itself is riddled with contradictions] is an innovation? Or that any innovation is 'bad'?
 
Of course, its rubbish. The "Koran" itself says to use your brain. The assumption that using your brain itself is a limited option is also bida'a since it is not specified as such in the Qur'an.

If one used their brains, they would find the Quran a book of myths and superstitions written by ignorant shepherds.

Rather self-defeating.
 
So..no hadiths...?:bugeye:

Not for me, no. They were collected from a hundred to eight hundred years after the Prophet died. They are interesting from the point of view of tracing cultural changes in Islamic society. But there are degrees of reliance on them based on isnad [chain of narration] and are classified by degree of reliance on the speaker, authenticity of narration and number of supporting narrations.

My own view of the hadiths is that

1. even if they show an accurate chain of narration, this does not qualify as authencity of narrative

2. if they contradict the Qur'an, they can be tossed out.

Interestingly, the wahabis, who are obsessed with bida'ah do not apply the same scrutiny to the hadiths. Its probably why their version of Islam has become boring.
 
But there are degrees of reliance on them based on isnad [chain of narration] and are classified by degree of reliance on the speaker, authenticity of narration and number of supporting narrations.
Islamic Whispers.


If religious people could accept that stories are stories and simply indications of the truth rather than concrete fact, there would be a lot less trouble.
If you are denying yourself the traditions and tales of your religion, you are missing out on a great deal I think.
 
Islamic Whispers.


If religious people could accept that stories are stories and simply indications of the truth rather than concrete fact, there would be a lot less trouble.
If you are denying yourself the traditions and tales of your religion, you are missing out on a great deal I think.

Not at all, I enjoy reading about them as much as the next person. Like the Mahabharata or the Ramayana or the Bhagwad Geeta, there is a position for all traditions.

But if we are to go by what the Prophet said, then there is one sahih Hadith of note:

app12_01.gif


The Prophet said, "Do not write down anything from me except the Quran." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Muslim]

app12_02.gif


This Hadith states that the Prophet maintained his anti-Hadith stand until death. [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 192]

The irony of course is that this is also part of the Hadiths.:p
 
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