Like which?
Bah Bah Black Sheep
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Asians for example.
Ah. Yes, they tend to integrate nicely. And satisfy our desire for Lemon Chicken.
eace:I am a muslim living in Europe. I don't shout about Sharia law. :shrug: I never even discussed religion with European, unless they ask me. I pray 5 times a day, including in office time, too, in my lab (if I am not lazy...), but I don't ask them to pray with me, neither I preach. But if somebody ask me questions, I just explain what I know. Most muslims here that I know are like this too. We have jobs to take care, too
oke:I am a muslim living in Europe. I don't shout about Sharia law. :shrug: I never even discussed religion with European, unless they ask me. I pray 5 times a day, including in office time, too, in my lab (if I am not lazy...), but I don't ask them to pray with me, neither I preach. But if somebody ask me questions, I just explain what I know. Most muslims here that I know are like this too. We have jobs to take care, too
kira you are an example of a good muslim. I am talking about the radical minded muslims that are quite frequently turn out to be the main cause of all this dilemma.
Most of them are "radicalised" by the racism they face. There will probably be some recruitment of Swiss Muslims by the radicals now. Its how these things work.
The problem with Muslims is we are not shy with our opinions, so it makes us more visible.
The problem with Muslims is we are not shy with our opinions, so it makes us more visible.
Thanks. Do you know any of them (radical minded muslims) personally? :shrug: There are muslims who turn into suicide bombers, but then again they live under occupation/agression. If you live in Russia, and Russia is being attacked, won't you try to defend your motherland? If you live in other country, and none doing anything wrong to you, why would you want to invite trouble to yourself? :shrug:
I live in USA, kira. Russians are about the most silent people of foreigners anywhere.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I've met dozens of Muslims in America who never talk about their religion with outsiders, and certainly never proselytize it. There are liberal Muslims just like there are liberal Christians and liberal Jews.
The "problem" with Muslims is that Islam is very much a religion concerned with a fictitious afterlife, more so than Christianity, and much more so than Judaism, which is all about this world. It's hard to argue with someone when his entire argument is based on belief in the supernatural, which makes it okay to incur colossal collateral damage in the battle for truth and justice, because God will sort us all out in Heaven after we've been, regrettably, killed.
This makes the "problem" with Muslims the fact that they're playing by the rules of the 15th century. The Reformation made it a duty for Christians to kill Christians with slightly different beliefs, and to kill Jews, Muslims, people of other religions, and atheists casually without a second thought. Western civilization has struggled to get past that, with the Holocaust being (geeze I hope so anyway) the last gasp of the tribal violence of medieval Christianity.
Since Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity and (according to some scholars) has been tracking at a fairly steady 600-year lag in its philosophy, politics and institutions, those same scholars predict that Islam is about to enter its Reformation. This will be really nice for people living in the 23rd century, when it's over, but it will be hell for us and our children who have to live through it.
superstring01
Moderator
There's nothing wrong with the Swiss having voted against the minarets when all of this started because of the fact that no one other than a Muslim turkish cultural league that is associated with the Grey Wolves requested for a minaret in 2006, and received it. I'm not sorry for not wanting to support any more of these neo-fascists' requests who hide behind "religious freedom", while having insincere agendas. Allowing them any further places to manifest would only increase the influx of these extremists. We don't need these kind of people in our land. If by disallowing minarets the numbers of supporters of organisations such as the Grey Wolves will decrease then it's the way to go.
Indeed. I hear the same argument in the Dalits all the time. They should be personally responsible in the face of sustained continued endemic racism against them.
The danger to Swis society from the construction of minarets cannot be underestimated.
So? Which Swiss Muslims have done that? The reality of racism is that some people will grasp at any excuse to undermine the culture and religion of others. Europe is hardly a stranger to religious discrimination. This action, where the Swiss are "protecting themselves" by passing a specific law that is religiously directed only at Muslims, has plenty of precedent in European/colonial history.
There's nothing wrong with the Swiss having voted against the minarets when all of this started because of the fact that no one other than a Muslim turkish cultural league that is associated with the Grey Wolves requested for a minaret in 2006, and received it. I'm not sorry for not wanting to support any more of these neo-fascists' requests who hide behind "religious freedom", while having insincere agendas. Allowing them any further places to manifest would only increase the influx of these extremists. We don't need these kind of people in our land. If by disallowing minarets the numbers of supporters of organisations such as the Grey Wolves will decrease then it's the way to go.
The danger to Swis society from the construction of minarets cannot be underestimated.
So? Which Swiss Muslims have done that? The reality of racism is that some people will grasp at any excuse to undermine the culture and religion of others. Europe is hardly a stranger to religious discrimination. This action, where the Swiss are "protecting themselves" by passing a specific law that is religiously directed only at Muslims, has plenty of precedent in European/colonial history.
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superstring01
Moderator
Something does not have to be a pernicious threat to be of concern. Minarets don't fit in what the Swiss want Switzerland to look like. Moreover, and this is seen all over Europe, there is very good reason to be concerned about the influx of Islam into Europe. You don't sense this or acknowledge it because you are are a Europe-bashing Muslim. Few things matter less to you than Europe preserving Europe. From Holland to Berlin, Muslim populations have a markedly less egalitarian view of women, gays and other religions. Even today Muslim extremists gather in growing numbers chanting for Shria in Britain and the Netherlands. That these groups are eons away, if ever, from creating such a state doesn't matter. Their values and growing numbers are a direct threat to the progressive ideals that most Europeans hold.
Most Europeans rightly see it a small sacrifice to make--restricting Islamic growth--to preserve their identity and progressive views against Koran toting thugs hell-bent on changing the fabric of Europe. In this case, it really is a "pound of prevention". Pedal their ideals a step backwards and restrict some freedoms now in order prevent what will obviously be total chaos--if not civil war--down the road.
~String
Thats the best justification for racism I have heard. Restricting the rights of minorities.
Do you think homosexuality should be restricted in society for similar reasons?
Are gay people a danger to heterosexuality?
Do you think the periodic expulsion of Jews helped maintain the character of Europe?
If the only way a majority can maintain its "identity" is by undermining the rights of the minority, then that majority should rethink its identity.
Do you think homosexuality should be restricted in society for similar reasons?
Are gay people a danger to heterosexuality?
Do you think the periodic expulsion of Jews helped maintain the character of Europe?
If the only way a majority can maintain its "identity" is by undermining the rights of the minority, then that majority should rethink its identity.
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superstring01
Moderator
Not minorities, religions. Primitive, hateful religions (you'll note, I'm not fan of any of the Abrahamic faiths, and their demise on the continent--any continent--is a good thing).
I'm waiting for you to show a definitive history of gay men throwing acid womens' faces who acted independently of their arranged/forced marriages to oppressive men, forcing girls to get clitorectomies, forcing women to wear bed sheets over their bodies, exploding ancient Buddhist statues for no reason other than to exalt Islam, committing "honor killings", banning the teaching of evolution, and imposing religious theocracies that kill people for heresy and apostasy. If you can, then, SHIT, ban the fucking fags!
No. And Muslims in a place like the USA aren't a threat to much either.
Curiously, why am I not seeing you protest just as loudly at the way Iranians treat the Baha'i? Is it because they are Islamic and get a pass?
Jews weren't threatening to over-populate Europe and convert it into a different society. Jews, for better or worse, just wanted to be left alone and blend in.
Islamic culture and European culture is becoming obviously incompatible, and this is the fault of Islam. Demanding that brain-washed women be allowed to cover their bodies, demanding the imposition of Sharia, demanding special courts.
I see why you use the comparison, but they aren't the same.
When a minority threatens to undermine the rule of law and to rewrite the very fabric of a society, then that society has the right to alter the rights of a minority. You won't hear me argue against that point. For this reason, I wouldn't care if Japan illegality the immigration of whites into Osaka or if Iran illegality the immigration of Hispanics into Tehran. Any society has the right to preserve itself against eventual destruction, even if that "preservation" makes some people simper.
The USA is an imigrant society and therefore not as obsessive about preserving any specific culture. Europe is not.
~String
Sounds like the Swiss Muslims have a long road to go. One of the problems I have with this form of "direct democracy" where the rights of Swiss Muslims are determined not by the international laws that Switzerland has signed up to but by what Saudi Arabia is doing, is that you can skew the results by manipulating the demographics.
e.g. if we were to hold a similar vote in pre-apartheid Souh Africa on the rights of blacks it would be no surprise to anyone that white South Africans who wanted to maintain their identity would vote to keep the blacks in bantustans.
However, your conflation of all Swiss Muslims with all Muslims everywhere and namely with the extremists who represent less than 1% of the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world is an excellent argument for such direct democracy extended to the global arena. If Swiss Muslims rights will be determined by the activities of Muslims anywhere then Muslims anywhere can opt in with their opinions. So its a good way to open that debate, since it will force many Muslims to explore these opinions in their own societies.
It will be a good thing, in my opinion. It will bring more discussion of Islam.
e.g. if we were to hold a similar vote in pre-apartheid Souh Africa on the rights of blacks it would be no surprise to anyone that white South Africans who wanted to maintain their identity would vote to keep the blacks in bantustans.
However, your conflation of all Swiss Muslims with all Muslims everywhere and namely with the extremists who represent less than 1% of the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world is an excellent argument for such direct democracy extended to the global arena. If Swiss Muslims rights will be determined by the activities of Muslims anywhere then Muslims anywhere can opt in with their opinions. So its a good way to open that debate, since it will force many Muslims to explore these opinions in their own societies.
It will be a good thing, in my opinion. It will bring more discussion of Islam.
superstring01
Moderator
Swiss-Muslim rights are determined by the Swiss who may use any factor, from anywhere, to consider how they vote. Islam, in general, has a horrid record, both in Europe and abroad, of respecting women, gay and "other religion" rights. Why would Switzerland want to allow such a force to grow within its borders. It's Switzerland, if it's too much to take, there are like a hundred other nations to go to.
~String
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