Authority Figures and Faith

[Satyr]

How do you decide which authority figure or expert or specialist or teacher or mentor is more reliable and what criteria do you use to evaluate their validity and reliability?

{Within the metaphysical, physical and religious/spiritual sphere.}

What is “correct" and what is “right” and using what criteria do you judge an epistemology?

How do you assess the teachings you were forced-fed, from early childhood and how do you separate your self-interests and seek detachment from your instincts and emotions and prejudices – in other words how do you separate your current thinking from the heritage of thinking, your past, which affects and often deludes them?

 

[sandy]

My number one is obviously God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No one forced me to believe. I just do.

I also respect other authority figures like law enforcement officials. No one ever told me I had to. I just do.

We have the gift of discernment. We just know when something is right or wrong.

My current thinking is God-fed. My past thinking was more about me. Now it's more about Him.

 

[Cortex_Colossus]

How do you decide which authority figure or expert or specialist or teacher or mentor is more reliable and what criteria do you use to evaluate their validity and reliability?

Interrogation, infuriating, inebriating are just some of the things the CIA uses on its suspects.

{Within the metaphysical, physical and religious/spiritual sphere.}

What is “correct" and what is “right” and using what criteria do you judge an epistemology?

Supposedly we judge it with heart.
I suppose there is a "psychic-web" connecting the human with the human condition. Would you agree?

It's like a pestilent disease that sucks the life out of its weakest members. The thing is that there is a difference between understanding it and implementing its dissipitation.

How do you assess the teachings you were forced-fed, from early childhood and how do you separate your self-interests and seek detachment from your instincts and emotions and prejudices – in other words how do you separate your current thinking from the heritage of thinking, your past, which affects and often deludes them?

I suppose that the "heritage of thinking" and current thinking is meant to be inseparable. It may be presumed The Lord intended so (and it may well have been, given that we cannot confirm any non-existence). The safest bet is to force yourself to believe whether you like it or not. That doesn't make one wicked or sinful, it makes one a realist and objectivist.

Sorry, I meant that it makes one a mysticist and fantasist.

My number one is obviously God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No one forced me to believe. I just do.

I see you are quite the sharp one.

My current thinking is God-fed. My past thinking was more about me. Now it's more about Him.

What an admirable feat do you not think? That one can narrow one's vision down to a mass delusion? Or perhaps we cynicists (I don't like to use the term atheist) are not invited to Heaven.

 

[James R]

I think the best way to assess authority figures is to compare and contrast the views of many of them, and also look at what independent evidence is available. Then, you can determine who gets things right most often.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

How do you decide which authority figure or expert or specialist or teacher or mentor is more reliable and what criteria do you use to evaluate their validity and reliability?

{Within the metaphysical, physical and religious/spiritual sphere.}

What is “correct" and what is “right” and using what criteria do you judge an epistemology?

How do you assess the teachings you were forced-fed, from early childhood and how do you separate your self-interests and seek detachment from your instincts and emotions and prejudices – in other words how do you separate your current thinking from the heritage of thinking, your past, which affects and often deludes them?

Good one, it is hard for anyone to find whats real behind all the BS.
The answer resides in the difference between believe and trust.

What you believe is not real, what you trust, is real.

So you can read, but you haven´t experienced it yourself, so is nothing. The answer is in each and every one of us. The real Bible is our inner-self. And it is impossible to read, if you have a strong ego, if you are not open to possibilities, to transformation.

It is like the air we breath. When we breath out, we breath in again, because we trust that there is enough air, we know it. A given belief is like a child that holds his breath, because he doesn´t trust that there is enough air. So a person inprisoned by a set of beliefs, is holding his breath. Is not really breathing.

 

[Satyr]

Good one, it is hard for anyone to find whats real behind all the BS.
The answer resides in the difference between believe and trust.

What you believe is not real, what you trust, is real.

So you can read, but you haven´t experienced it yourself, so is nothing. The answer is in each and every one of us. The real Bible is our inner-self. And it is impossible to read, if you have a strong ego, if you are not open to possibilities, to transformation.

It is like the air we breath. When we breath out, we breath in again, because we trust that there is enough air, we know it. A given belief is like a child that holds his breath, because he doesn´t trust that there is enough air. So a person inprisoned by a set of beliefs, is holding his breath. Is not really breathing.

What a wonderful way to speak without actually saying anything.

“The authority of the bible is respectable only when you abandon your ego?”
Your hypothesis can be used to defend any hypothetical.

“You must abandon your ego and open your eyes to possibilities so that alien abductions can become real”.

Did you understand the question?

How do you choose what authority or what experts or what teachers to respect and to rely upon?
If you cannot answer the question without resorting to, doubletalk, then shut up!!!!

Here’s another thing you have to leave behind so that the bible becomes valid: your mind.
And you are an excellent example of this.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

What a wonderful way to speak without actually saying anything.

“The authority of the bible is respectable only when you abandon your ego?”
Your hypothesis can be used to defend any hypothetical.

“You must abandon your ego and open your eyes to possibilities so that alien abductions can become real”.

Did you understand the question?

How do you choose what authority or what experts or what teachers to respect and to rely upon?
If you cannot answer the question without resorting to, doubletalk, then shut up!!!!

Here’s another thing you have to leave behind so that the bible becomes valid: your mind.
And you are an excellent example of this.

Wow, I really hurt your ego, that way you cannot identify a teacher, not a chance in hell. You gotta realize, that the feeling you got, the anger towards me, is in yourself, not towards me, I had nothing to do with it. It is your ego that makes you feel that way.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

What I meant to say is, by non-judging, you´ll see the truth. Although it is pretty difficult to not judge. Because you have learned to judge since you are a little kid, if you don´t judge, anyone can be a teacher.
The key to not judging is to let go of the past and future. Live your life in the present, like a 2 year old does perfectly.

 

[nietzschefan]

Well much like the 2 year old inherits the fears/wants/needs of the parents, so too does humanity inherit the fears/needs/wants(I contend this is the formulae of Religion) of it's ancestors.

 

[Satyr]

Wow, I really hurt your ego, that way you cannot identify a teacher, not a chance in hell. You gotta realize, that the feeling you got, the anger towards me, is in yourself, not towards me, I had nothing to do with it. It is your ego that makes you feel that way. Old Wineskin.

Yes, it wasn’t you, to was me all along.
I get it now.

It’s not your thickness that frustrates but the other’s inability to interpret it as your wisdom.

Anger?
Don’t flatter yourself.

Here it is again:

Listen,

What I meant to say is, by non-judging, you´ll see the truth. Although it is pretty difficult to not judge. Because you have learned to judge since you are a little kid, if you don´t judge, anyone can be a teacher.
The key to not judging is to let go of the past and future. Live your life in the present, like a 2 year old does perfectly.

If you advocate thinking like this, then you are leading by example.

The intellect is a judging mechanism meant to facilitate survival.
Suspend judgment and you are not thinking at all, but reacting.

If you do not judge, anything can be fact, based exclusively on if it makes you feel good.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Well much like the 2 year old inherits the fears/wants/needs of the parents, so too does humanity inherit the fears/needs/wants(I contend this is the formulae of Religion) of it's ancestors.

Now that I see you in this thread, I remember the words of Nietzche about this kind of stuff:
Nietzche puts humans in 3 metamorphoses of awareness: the Camel, the Lion and the Child.
We are born child, then we become camels, and the mayority of people stay in this stage. Camels only do what others tell them to do, they don´t have a personality of their own, they are part of the society, but they are not individuals.
Camels perceive other camels as teachers of the art of being camels. If a camel is able to carry more weight than other camels, then the other camels are going to respect him, and try to learn from him. Once in a while a camel is able to lift 2 times more weight than the others, so they give him a Masters degree, or a Novel Price on being the best camel.

The lion is a rebellion against the stage of the camel. The person becomes aware of this situation, and starts to disagreeing with everyone. The camels don´t like the lion, they feel threatened by them, althoug all the camels are able to achieve this state of Lion, they judge him, and most of the times kill him or prosecute them.

The last stage of the child is not merely a rebellion but a true revolution and might as well be described as enlightenment in eastern philosophy. So, according to Nietzsche the second childhood is the real one, and for Westerners this might even ring a “biblical bell”. In the stage of the child a person becomes utterly free from past and the future.

But Nietzche missed a spot, the second childhood is not like the first one. The second has self-discipline and is a conscient childhood. It is the same level of unification of the spirit, but the second time is done consciently.

This state, is when the Ego is mature enough so it can be dropped, the ego has to be fully developed in order to be able to dismiss it. Because only when you are truly aware of the ego, it just goes away.

So the stage of "child", is a representation of being conscient of the present, as the only reality, seing everything for the first time, enjoy every bit of it. Learn from everything, with fresh eyes.

So about this, Osho says:

You feel jealousy, competitiveness, or an inferiority complex because "somebody else has become enlightened and I am still a camel."

Don't be worried. This is a caravan of camels!

And whenever, once in a while, a camel turns into a lion, I whisper in his ear, "Keep quiet. Don't start roaring, because the camels are too many: they will simply kill you. They will not tolerate such a nuisance." And whenever a lion changes into a child, then naturally for his protection I have to tell him, "Now you are a child -- vulnerable, open, keep it a secret hidden deep within you."

Certificates have been given to the camels so they can enjoy their camelhood without any inferiority complex.

Yes, it wasn’t you, to was me all along.
I get it now.

It’s not your thickness that frustrates but the other’s inability to interpret it as your wisdom.

Anger?
Don’t flatter yourself.

Here it is again:

Listen,

If you advocate thinking like this, then you are leading by example.

The intellect is a judging mechanism meant to facilitate survival.
Suspend judgment and you are not thinking at all, but reacting.

If you do not judge, anything can be fact, based exclusively on if it makes you feel good.

I appreciate your words of advice, you have a great perspective on things.

Here is a man in the stage of a Lion: ............ Here is a man in the stage of a Child:

.................

 

[spidergoat]

My number one is obviously God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No one forced me to believe. I just do.

I also respect other authority figures like law enforcement officials. No one ever told me I had to. I just do.

We have the gift of discernment. We just know when something is right or wrong.

My current thinking is God-fed. My past thinking was more about me. Now it's more about Him.

I think you may have missed the point. You only found out about God through a modern intermediary. How do you know the priests you listen to have the correct interpretation?

 

[nietzschefan]

Nietzsche also said the good people everywhere are uniformly able to pluck the "good fruit" from even the most obsolete and diseased system. The "evil" people were always those opposed to the "status quo". The revolutionaries etc. And so, when it came to pass that these people successfully did change the status quo, they uniformly became "good".

 

[SkinWalker]

W_S, your images of tarot cards might require a bit more explanation than is given. As it is, the short bit of text and two tarot cards don't appear to have any relevance whatsoever to the topic.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

W_S, your images of tarot cards might require a bit more explanation than is given. As it is, the short bit of text and two tarot cards don't appear to have any relevance whatsoever to the topic.

This are not common tarot, it was a tarot made by Osho, and it is not for any esoteric readings like the ancient tarot. It is only for philosophical interpretations. Osho speaks plenty about Nietzche and his categories, so it is not a surprise he introduced the concept of Nietzche´s "Lion" into his cards.

The thing is, the first one is "Conditioning", it means that if you turn into a Lion in a world of sheep, you need to adjust to the circumstances, or you´ll get a sheep revolution against you. "Blend in" with the sheep, behave like a sheep.

The "Innocence" card is about the second childhood I spoke before, a Zen Master is speaking to a Mantis like a child with an everlasting smile on his face, enjoying every second of life, living the present. Not wasting time wondering about future goals or past experiences, just living life as it is, simple and beautiful, in the present. This is the concept of second childhood and meditation.

 

[SkinWalker]

And its related to the topic how?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

And its related to the topic how?

The topic is about how to identify a spiritual master. How do you know is BS?

The thing is, if you are in the stage of a "camel", represented as sheeps in the picture, you won´t be able to identify a lion, or a child. As a "camel", you will judge them do to an inferiority complex, you will say: "This is not a teacher, this person is not carrying his baggage, as a true camel".

I mean, your Ego is formed by preconceived notions in your society, they tell you what is good and what is bad since you are a little kid. For example a Christian, they have a specific set of rules for behaviour, this is their ego. So they are told not to "fornicate", and they discriminate "fornicators", they call them sinners, they are against Christian beliefs, and unless they change, Christians are not going to accept them. This only generates struggle, since they want to fornicate as well, is human nature.

It is like an anecdote of a group of monks. They were told by their master, that when they see a beautiful woman, they should close their eyes.
One day the monks were crossing a river, and a gorgeous woman was in one side of the river, asking to be carried across it. The first monks passed her by, just closing their eyes to the eminent beauty. And then one of the monks gave her a lift on his shoulders.
The other monks were furious at him, because he had not only seen the woman, but he touched her.
This is a clear example of the ego, they are jealous because they wanted to carry her, they wanted to see her, and they were so jealous they threw the monk out of their group. But they were breaking the same precepts they lived by by doing this act, the discriminated, they judged; they didn´t even help a woman to cross the river. Because of their preconceived notions of what is good and what is bad, this is their ego.

A master has no ego, like the "innocence" card. And when a person is like this, he doesn´t live by the rules of the cammels, he only lives the present.

My whole point is, before saying who should be a master and who should not, you should get rid of your preconceived judgement of people, by judging, you will never be able to identify a master.

If you are a Catholic, you will see a master in a person that lives by the rules of the Catholic church, this is a camel respectig another camel. He is not able to identify a Lion.
Like a newbie history major that consider a true master a history profesor with a Phd. This is a camel respecting a camel that has an awards given by camels because he is carrying a huge weight.

 

[spidergoat]

Is that Osho the (now deceased) person, or Osho™ the marketing entity?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Is that Osho the (now deceased) person, or Osho™ the marketing entity?

Yeap, discredit the source in order to not accept the teachings. Probably the images were not made by Osho the deceased person, but they are pretty and illustrate the point that Osho was trying to make.

 

[Adstar]

How do you decide which authority figure or expert or specialist or teacher or mentor is more reliable and what criteria do you use to evaluate their validity and reliability?

{Within the metaphysical, physical and religious/spiritual sphere.}

What is “correct" and what is “right” and using what criteria do you judge an epistemology?

How do you assess the teachings you were forced-fed, from early childhood and how do you separate your self-interests and seek detachment from your instincts and emotions and prejudices – in other words how do you separate your current thinking from the heritage of thinking, your past, which affects and often deludes them?

By the Word of God.

It is simple.

In the end if anyone teaches you a doctrine or tells you its ok to do something that is against the Word of God you must disregard what they say.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days