Aryan Schism: Asura v. Deva or God v. Titan

[Prince_James]

Note: I'd put this specifically in the Eastern Religious section, but as it is going to widely discuss Western polytheism alongside Zoroastrian and Hindu conceptions. This thread also was inspired mostly as part of LightGigantic and my own discussion on the matter.

Also, I use the term "Aryan" because it is far less bulky than Indo-European and has a historic foundation in what at least the upper castes considered themselves to be in India, I.E., noble.

One of the chief characteristics of Aryan religion is the notion of two groups of deities. Usually, these groups of deities are related in some way - having a common ancestor one or two generations back - but in the present circumstances of the myths, they are distinct branches. In Greek religion and Indo-Persian religion, the two groups are antagonistic to eachother. That is, it is God v. Titan. In German religion, the two branches of deities - Aesir and Vanir - are not so, but rather, are united in an alliance and even have intermarried.

This thread is to discuss the social, religious, and cultural impact and foundation of this belief.

 

[lightgigantic]

The asuras and the devas are two types of qualities

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Fearlessness; purification of one's existence; cultivation of spiritual knowledge; charity; self-control; performance of sacrifice; study of the Vedas; austerity; simplicity; nonviolence; truthfulness; freedom from anger; renunciation; tranquillity; aversion to faultfinding; compassion for all living entities; freedom from covetousness; gentleness; modesty; steady determination; vigor; forgiveness; fortitude; cleanliness; and freedom from envy and from the passion for honor — these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.

BG 16.4: Pride, arrogance, conceit, anger, harshness and ignorance — these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Pṛthā.

BG 16.5: The transcendental qualities are conducive to liberation, whereas the demoniac qualities make for bondage. Do not worry, O son of Pāṇḍu, for you are born with the divine qualities.

MOre descriptions of the asuras on
http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/16/en

Basically one class of person is submissive or very quick to become submissive to the authority of god, and th e other is obstinately diametrically opposed

lol - in short it seems to draw up the exact dichotomy any thread on the religious forums exhibibits - which is a bit frustrating for those who would like to move on to the discussion of more advanced theological concepts (its a bit difficult when you have to deal with "but there ain't no such thing" all the time)

There is also the explanation of their coming into existence, which tends to take the image of devils and angels, but there are a few surrounding issues that have to be properly understood to put such definitions in context - such as vedic time - basically time is accepted to be cyclic as opposed to linear in the vedic paradigm

 

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

I do not think you can find true support for your viewpoint in the Vedas. Consider, for instance, Varuna. Varuna is amongst the most importnat of the Asuras (which are later classified as demons) yet consider what the Vedas say of him:

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/vedic_experience/Part4/VEPartIVChB.html

Similarly, in Zoroastrianism - which shows every sign of being from the same root religion as Hinduism, being both descended directly from Indo-European - the Ahuras (Asuras) are the ones which are held to be great, not the Devas, which are considered demonic. That is to say, the very concept is switched around, so the demonic things of which you speak are not found amongst the Asuras.

But yes, clearly the Vedic literature about "demonic character" is present, only that we cannot say this is "asuric".

 

[lightgigantic]

There are onstances of asuras being more qualified than devas - such as Vrtasura (he had an encounter with Indra) and also similar instances of Indra being rebellious (he launched an attack on krsna several times because he felt that krishna was treading on his turf, even though a deva accepts that Krishna, or vishnu, is the owner of everything)

There are also incidents of Ravana's brother being very amiable to Rama, and also Prahlada maharaj, born in a family of asuras yet a mahabhagavat (greater than even deva status) - also dvida, a faithful fighter onlord rama's army became an asura of such status during krishna's pastimes that he was kiled by him (he fell down from his status due to bad association) - the same of bhaumasura, who was the son of the earth personified (a deva) - then there is Bali maharaj, an asura king - who leads the asuras in to batle against the devas, yet he is accepted as a mahajan, that is one can follow his personal example how to properly surrender to god - there are countless examples

Devas however, after all is said and done, are in control of material affairs - in other words they are in posts that are designated and empowered by vishnu - and the asuras want to usurp that position- for instance sometimes indra falls from his position, due to offending his spiritual master or getting cursed by sages due to some inappropriate behavious by spiritual standards, which effectively means thatthe asuras become empowered to take indras throne - and thus th euniverse gets thrown in to chaos - which often leads to them approaching vishnu (ie god) to re- establish order - classic example is the churning of the ocean between the devas and asuras

As for thinking who is the good guys, the devas or asuras - depends on your values and needs and concerns - for instance ravana, despite his flaws, was incredibly intelligent and his related works (ravanasamhita) are chanted by certain brahmanas who rely on his principles to establish astrological readings - some even worship ravana by building an effegy of rama to burn (its a big festival in india - celebrating the opposite - namely burning an effegy of ravana to celebrate rama's victory)

 

[lightgigantic]

Scholarly views of the content and dating of Vedic literature

fromhere


Such views are many and various, although the general consensus of opinion dates the arrival of the Aryans from Central Europe at approximately 1500 BCE and the Vedas themselves at around 1500-1200 BCE. As Chaudhuri (1979) points out, there is very little evidence to support this particular date for the composition of the Vedas (nor any other date for that matter). Some scholars opt for even earlier dates; for example, Radhakrishnan and Moore (1957) suggest approximate dates of 2500 BCE for the arrival of Aryan culture and 1500 BC E for the composition of the Vedas. Recent discoveries of cities in the Indus Valley have led archaeologists to date Harappan culture at between 3000 and 1500 BCE, and Aryan culture after 1500 BCE (Tharpar, 1966). None of these dates are conclusive, however, and it is well known that the whole process of dating settlements and texts in early India is very difficult. As Tharpar (1966) states, the Painted-Grey Ware found on archaeological sites in the West is still only 'tentatively' associated with the Aryans. In addition, Judah comments:

The dating of all early Hindu literature is subject to considerable controversy and must be considered tentative. For example, the four traditional Vedas ... represent material that was transmitted orally in archaic Sanskrit for centuries ... Since none of these compilations have manuscripts dating close to their time of origin, dating is risky, and one must depend largely on internal criticism such as changes in language, thought and locale.

Dating may be inconclusive but few scholars have felt happy to discuss Vedic literature and culture without it. (Dasgupta [1975] and Chaudhuri [1979] try not to speculate, although the latter certainly has opinions on the matter).

In otherwords it is a highly speculative cause to venture on this subject of comparisons in ancient culture, since the establishment of eras of establishment is highly speculative as a premise

for further reading on the speculative nature of the entire aryan invasion try this