Army degenerates by leaps and bounds , Is there any truth in that?

[arauca]

While the U.S. fights for "equality and democracy" around the world, the U.S. army gets morally degraded. The soldiers serving outside the United States, commit serious crimes: rapes, robberies and murders. However, most of them get away with it easily, whereas the facts of such crimes are swept under the carpet. So what do the U.S. military do away from their fatherland?

The U.S. has many military bases abroad, and the number of servicemen serving there is quite large. News reports about the misconduct of American soldiers overseas appear in the media every now and then. Drunken brawls, fights, robbery and rape - this is an incomplete list of their crimes.

In April 2012, The Los Angeles Times published photos, depicting U.S. soldiers posing with body parts of dead suicide bombers. A total of 18 photos were published - the disturbing pictures appeared in the paper owing to a serviceman from the 82nd Airborne Division. According to the newspaper, two years ago the soldiers of the division were sent to the place of a terrorist attack to identify the bombers - that was the time when the scandalous pictures were taken.



Many global publications noted that the shocking photos showed the level of culture and morality in the U.S. Army, to which the United States Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta said that the action committed by several soldiers could in no way reflect the level of morality in the U.S. Army as a whole. However, he added, the soldiers posing on the photographs, were, of course, guilty and must be punished. Pentagon officials called their act inhuman.

The above was not the first case. A year ago, a video appeared on the net showing several American soldiers desecrating the dead bodies of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. And in February of that year, it was reported that servicemen at the military airbase at Bagram in Afghanistan arranged a "show," at which they publicly burned, from 60 to 80 religious books, including a Quran.

However, civilians also suffer from the actions of U.S. troops. A scandal broke out in May 2012 with General Sinclair, who served in Afghanistan. News agencies said that Jeffrey Sinclair was accused of many crimes, including rape, illegal actions of sexual nature committed against subordinate females, sodomy and abuse. A solid stock discs with pornography was found during the search. In addition, the general was charged with the possession of alcohol, failure to execute orders from senior management, and so on. The softest charge was about inappropriate treatment of subordinates.

 

[joepistole]

Some US soldiers have committed crimes while in uniform, that is a matter of record. But the record also shows that the vast majority of US soldiers are good law abiding citizens. Members of the US military are always subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice no matter where they may be or what they may be doing. The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) is very strict and all encompassing. Any soldiers suspected of violations of the UCMJ, are tried and if found guilty penalized according to the law.

Additionally, US military troops are located in foreign countries with the consent and usually the invitation of the host government. If US soldiers were the lawless brigands you want them to be, they would not be the effective fighting force they are and host governments and communities would not welcome them as they do. Americans to their credit don’t cover up their scandals as many other countries do. Americans don’t pretend to be perfect, because they are not. If you compared the behavior of American troops to those of other nations, I think American troops would do fairly well. What is unusual is that if American troops do something wrong; they get a lot of attention very quickly. And just because you don’t hear about the misdeeds of troops from other nations, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Because it does, you just hear about American troops more frequently because we are an open transparent society.

 

[Asguard]

Some US soldiers have committed crimes while in uniform, that is a matter of record. But the record also shows that the vast majority of US soldiers are good law abiding citizens. Members of the US military are always subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice no matter where they may be or what they may be doing. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is very strict and all encompassing. Any soldiers found guilty of violations, are tried and if found guilty penalized according to the law.

Additionally, US military troops are located in foreign countries with the consent and usually the invitation of the host government. If US soldiers were the lawless brigands you want them to be, they would not be the effective fighting force they are and host governments and communities would not welcome them as they do. Americans to their credit don’t cover up their scandals as many other countries do. Americans don’t pretend to be perfect, because they are not. If you compared the behavior of American troops to those of other nations, I think American troops would do fairly well. What is unusual is that if American troops do something wrong; they get a lot of attention very quickly. And just because you don’t hear about the misdeeds of troops from other nations, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Because it does, you just hear about American troops more frequently because we are an open transparent society.

There is a matter of public perception you have failed to address here. One example is the Navy Sailor who was charged with rape while his ship was docked in Perth and was whisked away by the US Navy to potentially face charges in the US. Now sure he MIGHT be held to account or it might be covered up, either way the decision doesn't LOOK impartial where as a decision as to whether or not to press charges by the DPP WOULD look impartial, not to mention the fact that the victim would be recognized under laws she knows and a system she would feel comfortable with where as the same may or may not be true of the US system.

The interesting thing is that this contrasts with a case where a honeymooning bride in Australia were killed by her new husband and the case was tried here and the outrage which came from the US when he was only found guilty of manslaughter

 

[Orleander]

There is a matter of public perception you have failed to address here. One example is the Navy Sailor who was charged with rape while his ship was docked in Perth and was whisked away by the US Navy to potentially face charges in the US....

do you have a link to this case? I googled it and can't find it

 

[joepistole]

There is a matter of public perception you have failed to address here. One example is the Navy Sailor who was charged with rape while his ship was docked in Perth and was whisked away by the US Navy to potentially face charges in the US. Now sure he MIGHT be held to account or it might be covered up, either way the decision doesn't LOOK impartial where as a decision as to whether or not to press charges by the DPP WOULD look impartial, not to mention the fact that the victim would be recognized under laws she knows and a system she would feel comfortable with where as the same may or may not be true of the US system.

The interesting thing is that this contrasts with a case where a honeymooning bride in Australia were killed by her new husband and the case was tried here and the outrage which came from the US when he was only found guilty of manslaughter

Is this the event you are referencing?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...claim-hits-scandal-prone-Australian-Navy.html

If so, it is not the US Navy, but the Australian Navy.

 

[arauca]

CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. (AP) — A U.S. Marine was set to face court martial Wednesday for urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters in Afghanistan and then posing for photos with the corpses.

Staff Sgt. Edward W. Deptola is accused of the desecration of remains and posing for unofficial photographs with human casualties. He also is accused of failing to properly supervise junior Marines and not reporting the misconduct.

Deptola and another Marine based at Camp LeJeune were charged last year after video surfaced showing four Marines in full combat gear urinating on the bodies of three dead Afghans in July 2011. In the video, one of the Marines looked down at the bodies and quipped, "Have a good day, buddy."

Staff Sgt. Joseph W. Chamblin pleaded guilty to similar charges last month. Under a deal reached before his court-martial, he lost $500 in pay and was reduced in rank to sergeant. Three other Marines were given administrative punishments for their roles.

 

[spidergoat]

To be intellectually honest, you would have to include statistics pertaining to the Army in previous years and compare them to the present.

 

[joepistole]

CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. (AP) — A U.S. Marine was set to face court martial Wednesday for urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters in Afghanistan and then posing for photos with the corpses.

Staff Sgt. Edward W. Deptola is accused of the desecration of remains and posing for unofficial photographs with human casualties. He also is accused of failing to properly supervise junior Marines and not reporting the misconduct.

Deptola and another Marine based at Camp LeJeune were charged last year after video surfaced showing four Marines in full combat gear urinating on the bodies of three dead Afghans in July 2011. In the video, one of the Marines looked down at the bodies and quipped, "Have a good day, buddy."

Staff Sgt. Joseph W. Chamblin pleaded guilty to similar charges last month. Under a deal reached before his court-martial, he lost $500 in pay and was reduced in rank to sergeant. Three other Marines were given administrative punishments for their roles.

How many Taliban were charged with crimes they committed, for the innocent women and children they killed and tortured, for the bodies they mutilated?

 

[Asguard]

Is this the event you are referencing?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...claim-hits-scandal-prone-Australian-Navy.html

If so, it is not the US Navy, but the Australian Navy.

No it wasn't. I cant locate the artical but it was a US sailor who assaulted a women in Perth while his ship was docked there. That in itself wasn't damaging, people do commit crimes. What was damaging (and was plasted all over the media at the time) was the fact that the US government refused to make him available for interview and then arrest to face charges in the Perth Supreme court, instead leaving vague promises which went along the lines "that if we find any evidence he would be court marshaled".

 

[arauca]

How many Taliban were charged with crimes they committed, for the innocent women and children they killed and tortured, for the bodies they mutilated?

Lets take care out own people, and stop been a police for the world . They kicked the Russian out and lets not embarrass our self , it did happen before in Viet Nam , are we so stupid , or the new generation don't read history, We did not like the Red coats so

 

[joepistole]

No it wasn't. I cant locate the artical but it was a US sailor who assaulted a women in Perth while his ship was docked there. That in itself wasn't damaging, people do commit crimes. What was damaging (and was plasted all over the media at the time) was the fact that the US government refused to make him available for interview and then arrest to face charges in the Perth Supreme court, instead leaving vague promises which went along the lines "that if we find any evidence he would be court marshaled".

There is nothing vague about being court marshaled. If the event you are alleging did occur, you should be able to produce some evidence of it, and you have been unable to do so. Further just because someone is accused of a crime, it doesn’t mean they are guilty of that crime. That is why we have something called due process. I believe you have the notion of due process in Australian courts as well. In the US the accused is presumed to be innocent until judged by a court of his/her peers. In the US individuals also have the right to legal counsel and have the right to not incriminate themselves. If the incident occurred, and if the sailor didn’t want to be interviewed and his attorney certainly would have not recommended the interview to his client, then there is no way the sailor would be forced to be interviewed. In the United States individuals have civil rights that must be respected by the state. We just don’t throw people in jail and throw away the keys because someone accuses them of wrong doing. We give them a trial by a jury of their peers.

 

[joepistole]

Lets take care out own people, and stop been a police for the world . They kicked the Russian out and lets not embarrass our self , it did happen before in Viet Nam , are we so stupid , or the new generation don't read history, We did not like the Red coats so

The answer is no. The Taliban were not even arrested for their transgressions. But yet you want the world to think that somehow American troops are the worst scum in the world.. And that is simply not true.

Let’s get your facts straight, the Taliban didn’t exist as a militia until 1994, the Russians withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. So the Taliban did not kick the Russians out of Afghanistan. Two, Vietnam has nothing to do with Afghanistan. Three, you may think the US should not be in the role of the world’s policeman. But who would you replace them with, the Russians, the Chinese?

US forces in Afghanistan were put there to eliminate a direct threat to the US, a threat that manifested itself in the form of the 9/11 terrorist attack which killed some 3k innocent individuals. The Red Coats were not in the colonies because colonialists killed 3k or even one innocent British national in London.

 

[arauca]

The answer is no.

Let’s get your facts straight, the Taliban didn’t exist as a militia until 1994, the Russians withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. So the Taliban did not kick the Russians out of Afghanistan. Two, Vietnam has nothing to do with Afghanistan. Three, you may think the US should not be in the role of the world’s policeman. But who would you replace them with, the Russians, the Chinese?
.

Do you want me to say the Afgan kicked the Russian out with American aid and then the Talliban got into power and we did not like the Islamist so er kicked them out . I know Vietnam have nothing to do with Afghanistan, but are you blind to see the parallel . Before we were scared of communism , but now we are crapping our pants with Islamist expansion .
Tell me why are we sticking our noses in every country business let the handle their own problems , lets do business not war

 

[spidergoat]

Tell me why are we sticking our noses in every country business let the handle their own problems , lets do business not war

Because the Taliban helped Osama kill 3,000 of us.

Anyway, that's besides the point. Soldiers are often young people with an aggressive personality. They get into trouble. The army doesn't babysit them when they are out in the field, they get delusions of absolute power. These things aren't new to any army. And they would happen whether our mission is just or unjust.

 

[Russ_Watters]

While the U.S. fights for "equality and democracy" around the world, the U.S. army gets morally degraded. The soldiers serving outside the United States, commit serious crimes: rapes, robberies and murders. However, most of them get away with it easily, whereas the facts of such crimes are swept under the carpet. So what do the U.S. military do away from their fatherland?

Do you have any statistical evidence showing a difference in crime rate among the military versus the population at large or a difference in arrest versus conviction rate, plus an increase in these over time? Or is this all just speculation/assumption based on a small handful of anecdotes?

 

[joepistole]

Do you want me to say the Afgan kicked the Russian out with American aid and then the Talliban got into power and we did not like the Islamist so er kicked them out . I know Vietnam have nothing to do with Afghanistan, but are you blind to see the parallel . Before we were scared of communism , but now we are crapping our pants with Islamist expansion .

No, you can say whatever you want to say. However, if you want to have a truthful and meaningful exchange, then you need to be truthful in your commentary. Afghanistan war lords with aid from the US fought the Russians to the point where they withdrew from Afghanistan. The Taliban subsequently, years later, formed a militia and took control of the country. And the Taliban allowed the country to become a major base for the terrorists who attacked the US and killed 3k innocent individuals. When asked by the US government, to surrender the terrorists, they refused.

If you know Vietnam has nothing to do with Afghanistan, why are you introducing it into the conversation? The Vietnam War occurred during the Cold War. It was one of the many proxy wars fought between communist and democratic countries. There is no parallel. The Vietnamese were fighting a war of independence. The war in Afghanistan is not a war of independence fought in the context of a cold war. It is a war against terrorism.

I don’t know about you but my pants are dry. I am not pooping my pants for anything much less Islamic expansion. And frankly, I don’t think most Americans spend a whole lot of time worrying or even thinking about Islamic expansion or terrorism. Now I know that is not what Islamic extremists want to hear. But it is the truth. That is why most American combat troops will be withdrawn next year and only small units will remain to train and execute special ops against terrorist holdouts in Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan. Americans don’t care what Islamists want to do as long as they don’t kill Americans or any of our allies. If they want to kill themselves, fine. But keep it at home. We won’t tolerate it in the US and we will protect our allies.

Tell me why are we sticking our noses in every country business let the handle their own problems , lets do business not war

We do let other countries handle their own problems. We do business. And we avoid war whenever possible. That doesn’t mean we don’t help populist insurgencies from time to time (e.g. Libya, Syria, Egypt). The US has global commercial interests and the US government represents those interests, like every other country in the world does. The German government represents German commercial interests around the globe. The Saudi Arabian government¸ the Chinese government, the Indian government all represent their commercial interests around the globe just as the US does. It is not an unreasonable thing to do. And it is quite common and necessary.

 

[Asguard]

There is nothing vague about being court marshaled. If the event you are alleging did occur, you should be able to produce some evidence of it, and you have been unable to do so. Further just because someone is accused of a crime, it doesn’t mean they are guilty of that crime. That is why we have something called due process. I believe you have the notion of due process in Australian courts as well. In the US the accused is presumed to be innocent until judged by a court of his/her peers. In the US individuals also have the right to legal counsel and have the right to not incriminate themselves. If the incident occurred, and if the sailor didn’t want to be interviewed and his attorney certainly would have not recommended the interview to his client, then there is no way the sailor would be forced to be interviewed. In the United States individuals have civil rights that must be respected by the state. We just don’t throw people in jail and throw away the keys because someone accuses them of wrong doing. We give them a trial by a jury of their peers.

Ummm Yea sure you have the right not to talk and the right to a lawyer. What you DON'T have the right to do is hide from an arrest on a ship which is then whisked away by a government who don't want you to face charges brought by the DPP in an Australian court when the crime was alleged to happen in Australia and the victim is in Australia and that's what happened. The DPP wanted the case to go to court and the US government gave vague promises that they would investigate (AFTER the WA police had already handed the brief over to the DPP and the DPP had decided to take the matter to court) and POSSIBLY court marshal the guy. Unless your saying that the Australian system is some how biased from investigation up, there was a case to answer and he should have appeared where the offence occurred to answer it. Anything else gives the appearance of bias

 

[joepistole]

Ummm Yea sure you have the right not to talk and the right to a lawyer. What you DON'T have the right to do is hide from an arrest on a ship which is then whisked away by a government who don't want you to face charges brought by the DPP in an Australian court when the crime was alleged to happen in Australia and the victim is in Australia and that's what happened. The DPP wanted the case to go to court and the US government gave vague promises that they would investigate (AFTER the WA police had already handed the brief over to the DPP and the DPP had decided to take the matter to court) and POSSIBLY court marshal the guy. Unless your saying that the Australian system is some how biased from investigation up, there was a case to answer and he should have appeared where the offence occurred to answer it. Anything else gives the appearance of bias

You don’t even have proof the event occurred, you don’t even have proof a crime occurred. Yet you have convicted this unnamed sailor. You have no evidence a crime occurred. You have no evidence that he was “hidden” away or “whisked” away. Two, the US has an agreement with Australia that provides immunity to our troops from local laws. We have that agreement with every country which hosts American troops. If a US service person does break the local laws while overseas and there is reasonable evidence of same, he/she will be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and if found guilty punished. And US punishments are much more severe that that found in most countries. We still have the death penalty on the books. So your story doesn't make sense.

I am not saying the Australian courts are biased. I am saying you cannot even prove this event occurred. You cannot prove anything you have written. You are just spewing out a bunch of unsubstantiated allegations. In this day and age where virtually everything can be found on the internet, there is no record of this event.

There are records of Australian sailors raping Australian women, but there is no record of American sailors raping Australian women.

 

[Orleander]

You don’t even have proof the event occurred, you don’t even have proof a crime occurred. Yet you have convicted this unnamed sailor. You have no evidence a crime occurred. You have no evidence that he was “hidden” away or “whisked” away. Two, the US has an agreement with Australia that provides immunity to our troops from local laws. We have that agreement with every country which hosts American troops. If a US service person does break the local laws while overseas and there is reasonable evidence of same, he/she will be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and if found guilty punished. And US punishments are much more severe that that found in most countries. We still have the death penalty on the books.

I am not saying the Australian courts are biased. I am saying you cannot even prove this event occurred. You are just spewing out a bunch of unsubstantiated allegations. In this day and age where virtually everything can be found on the internet, there is no record of this event.

:bravo: Yeah, I couldn't find anything to back up his claims as well. <sigh>

 

[Asguard]

You don’t even have proof the event occurred, you don’t even have proof a crime occurred. Yet you have convicted this unnamed sailor. You have no evidence a crime occurred. You have no evidence that he was “hidden” away or “whisked” away. Two, the US has an agreement with Australia that provides immunity to our troops from local laws. We have that agreement with every country which hosts American troops. If a US service person does break the local laws while overseas and there is reasonable evidence of same, he/she will be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and if found guilty punished. And US punishments are much more severe that that found in most countries. We still have the death penalty on the books. So your story doesn't make sense.

I am not saying the Australian courts are biased. I am saying you cannot even prove this event occurred. You cannot prove anything you have written. You are just spewing out a bunch of unsubstantiated allegations. In this day and age where virtually everything can be found on the internet, there is no record of this event.

You DO realize your own post makes whether or not i can find a crime from about 5 or 6 if not more YEARS ago irreverent right?

The issue is this "Two, the US has an agreement with Australia that provides immunity to our troops from local laws. "

Sorry but that's just not good enough, just like the citizens of the state where that honeymooning couple lived believed that only they could give the family true justice, what makes the US believe that they have the right to demand exemption from the laws of the land?

If the US wishes to press charges or not based on millatry order issues is fine, they can do so AFTER the victim has a chance at justice. Otherwise its really simply, stay on the bloody ship and don't come into port.