Are xians schizophrenic?

[Medicine*Woman]

The Frightening Resemblences Between Christians and Schizophrenics

Intense emotional disturbances and a nightmarish sense of confusion sometimes mark schizophrenia. This is usually related to specific precipitating stresses. Isn't this the same as the turmoil and confusion, which marks the point at which a person becomes a born-again Christian? Ask a Christian about his life before he became a Christian. Listen as he describes turmoil, and confusion.

Both the schizophrenic and the Christian live in a world filled with fantasy, illogical ideas, and invisible beings. Christians live in a world of gods, devils, angels, ghosts, heavens and hells. Is this reality, or the fantasy realm of the schizophrenic? The Christian believes in one god-the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. It that logical thinking, or illogical?

Clearly the latter. And both groups claim that what they believe is true to the point where all logic contrary to their ideals is dismissed. No matter what.

Schizophrenics sometimes have false beliefs (delusions) that aliens are monitoring their thoughts. A schizophrenic might believe his thoughts are being broadcast on his neighbor's television, or that communists are trying to take control of his brain. Likewise, the Christian believes that God monitors his thoughts, and the Devil is trying to control him.

Delusions of grandeur and of persecution are typical schizophrenic symptoms. Christians have both delusions. The Christian believes in the grandiose delusion of immortality, and that he is a part of "God's Plan." He also believes that satanic, demonic influences are persecuting him, the world around him, and constantly luring him toward evil.

Hallucinations are common with schizophrenics. The most common ones are auditory. The patient hears voices, and believes they are real. Hallucinations can also be visual, gustatory (taste), somatic ("I can feel Jesus in my heart"), tactile "(I felt God touch me"), emotional or olfactory (smell). Doesn't the Christian "hear" God during praying, and don't some see "visions" that aren't really there?
The schizophrenic typically is incapable of experiencing common everyday pleasures. How does this comment on the notion of some fundamentalists that playing cards, social drinking, dancing, sex, etc., are generally evil and to be avoided? How does this reflect on the typical Roman Catholic idea that our purpose in the world is to suffer?

Other features of mental illness with parallels in Christian behavior are Poverty of speech content (vagueness, empty repetition of meaningless obscure phrases). Examples are the hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy”, chanting “Amen” or suddenly shouting “Hallelujah”. The Christian also uses empty quotes from the bible, most of the time, without any clue what they mean.

Poverty of Speech Amount (brief, unelaborated responses), such as “I just know”, is another common quality. Incoherent speech (speech which is not understandable) is common.

Obsessive-Compulsive behavior (irresistible impulses to perform repeated irrational actions)is yet another shared quality. Have you ever seen a priest kiss a cross around his neck? Baptizing infants makes no sense at all, yet is common practice. Hell, even attending church or spreading the word of God to everyone you see is an act of Obsessive-Compulsive behavior.

www.geocities.com/godisimpossible/frentic.html

 

[Medicine*Woman]

xianity = non-treated epileptic delusion

The neural substrates of religious experience
JL Saver and J Rabin
UCLA-Reed Neurologic Research Center 90095, USA.

Religious experience is brain-based, like all human experience. Clues to the neural substrates of religious-numinous experience may be gleaned from temporolimbic epilepsy, near-death experiences, and hallucinogen ingestion. These brain disorders and conditions may produce depersonalization, derealization, ecstasy, a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, and other experiences that foster religious-numinous interpretation. Religious delusions are an important subtype of delusional experience in schizophrenia, and mood-congruent religious delusions are a feature of mania and depression. The authors suggest a limbic marker hypothesis for religious-mystical experience. The temporolimbic system tags certain encounters with external or internal stimuli as depersonalized, derealized, crucially important, harmonious, and/or joyous, prompting comprehension of these experiences within a religious framework.

 

[Cris]

M*W,

The symptoms apply to anyone who maintains strong spiritual beliefs such as yourself for example.

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by Cris
M*W,

The symptoms apply to anyone who maintains strong spiritual beliefs such as yourself for example.

And with a *ping* the nail is hit

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
M*W,

The symptoms apply to anyone who maintains strong spiritual beliefs such as yourself for example.

So spirituality does not exist then....and everything is material?

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Mephura]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
So spirituality does not exist then....and everything is material?

Love

Jan Ardena.

That's not what Cris was saying. The point is this: Those symptoms can be interpreted so that anyone of strong religous/spiritual beliefs will fit them. How you got spirituality doesn't exist from that, I haven't a clue.

It's all about what is perceived by the majority as normal or 'sane' and the degree to which those symptoms are present.
ie, biting your lip in times of stress would be a nervous habit. Biting you lip all day, to the point where blood is flowing because you felt you had to would be OC. A more relevant example: Arguing, occasionally, against someone because you feel their argument isn't well supported is a normal action. Constantly attacking someone day in and day out, over and over, demeaning them, and pointing out how they are 'mentally unstable' (even when you show yourself in the same light) because you feel compelled to prove you are right would be OC.

Frankly, I was thinking the exact same think Cris.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Mephura
How you got spirituality doesn't exist from that, I haven't a clue.

M.W. said,

"Both the schizophrenic and the Christian live in a world filled with fantasy, illogical ideas, and invisible beings. Christians live in a world of gods, devils, angels, ghosts, heavens and hells."

Cris said,

"M*W,

The symptoms apply to anyone who maintains strong spiritual beliefs such as yourself for example."

I know that is not the sum total of what M.W. implied, but her implication that Christianity is a fantasy plus what most of us know as Cris's understanding of religion in general, could easily be concluded as spirituality is non-existent. So my enquirey was intended to clear everything up.

Thanks for taking an interest.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Cris
M*W,

The symptoms apply to anyone who maintains strong spiritual beliefs such as yourself for example.

And your atheistic beliefs as well, Cris.

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
So spirituality does not exist then....and everything is material?

Love

Jan Ardena.

What is “spirituality”? If “spirituality” is not physical then it can not be perceived in the physical sense and thus you would not have any idea about it. Does a body without a brain still have “spirituality”? Simply put, what most people perceive as “spirituality” is directly related to feelings they experience which again are directly related to chemical reactions occurring in their brain. Hence it is not uncommon for people to take a “drug trip” and later (sometimes years) still talk about how that puyt them in touch with god. Or the schizophrenic who hears gods voice in his head and has weekly visits from Marry and/or Jesus. We call these people chemically imbalanced. And sure enough when given a bit of lithium or other psychotropic drug they may stabilize and the spirituality manifestations can permanently abate. All evidence points to this fact. When you feel love for someone it’s considered natural. If I were to say hello to you on the street and for years you followed me around professing your love then I think we can agree that is an psychological imbalance directly related to chemical processes going on in your brain. So in that sense yes, everything is material and any spirituality feelings you experience can easily be described, in general, as chemical reactions occurring in your brain. As a matter of fact, put under certain conditions I can physically produce those same (or similar – maybe better) spiritual experiences you have had using physical means.

 

[okinrus]

If everything spirtual is chemical then everything that we see and hear are chemical as well. So why do you trust your physical sight?

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by okinrus
If everything spirtual is chemical then everything that we see and hear are chemical as well. So why do you trust your physical sight?

Yes you are correct - everything we see and hear are chemical reactions.

What did you think the senses were?

A hair is stimulated by a sound, it causes a physical change in a cell which causes a chemical change, this chemical change causes other cells to have chemical changes these chemical changes cause yet other chemical changes to occur. The sum of these chemical changes are preserved as sound and hearing.

A photon hits a photon-reactive cell in the retina, this catalyses a chemical reaction which causes this cell to release chemicals that cause other chemical reaction to occur in other cells. The sum of these chemical changes are preserved as sight and images.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by okinrus
If everything spirtual is chemical then everything that we see and hear are chemical as well.

Bingo!

Originally posted by okinrus
So why do you trust your physical sight?

Why shouldn't I? Under normal circumstances why shouldn't we?

 

[okinrus]

<i><b>Why shouldn't I? Under normal circumstances why shouldn't we?</b></i>
Well I don't want to perturb you, but in that case we can't even trust ourselves. How did this thing called trust get started anyways? Or shall we say, how does random group of chemical reactions happen to manifest themselves into trust. Something that we know we have or we don't but if we don't, we know it's lacking.

<i><b> A hair is stimulated by a sound, it causes a physical change in a cell which causes a chemical change, this chemical change causes other cells to have chemical changes these chemical changes cause yet other chemical changes to occur. The sum of these chemical changes are preserved as sound and hearing.</b></i>
Yes, but there's difference. Sound that is off the scale is labeled noice but Mozart isn't. Is this a evolved trait? Does listening to music improve our survival rate?

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by okinrus
Well I don't want to perturb you, but in that case we can't even trust ourselves.

How did you arrive at that?

Originally posted by okinrus
How did this thing called trust get started anyways?

Here’s one answer - the big bang.

Originally posted by okinrus
Or shall we say, how does random group of chemical reactions happen to manifest themselves into trust.

Great question and there are a number of people working in those areas. However, as of now its not yet fully understood. One day it could be fully understood.

Originally posted by okinrus
[B<i><b> A hair is stimulated by a sound, it causes a physical change in a cell which causes a chemical change, this chemical change causes other cells to have chemical changes these chemical changes cause yet other chemical changes to occur. The sum of these chemical changes are preserved as sound and hearing.</b></i>
Yes, but there's difference. Sound that is off the scale is labeled noice but Mozart isn't. Is this a evolved trait? Does listening to music improve our survival rate? [/B]

Yes there’s a difference? What are you talking about? Between what and what? Some people would call Mozart noise and static music. So what?

Is what an evolved trait? Hearing?

Listening to music may indeed improve an animals (human) survival rate or listening to music could be a by-product of just plain listening. And I think one can understand that yes listening does improve an animal’s chance of survival.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

So spirituality does not exist then....and everything is material?

Spirituality certainly exists but its cause appears to be material.

Can you demonstrate otherwise?

 

[Cris]

M*W,

And your atheistic beliefs as well, Cris.

Isn’t this ‘you too’ riposte somewhat unimaginative and childish and simply inappropriate?

I understand how you would not wish to be grouped in with the Christians and their religion which you seem to hate with an extreme and strenuous fundamentalist fervor, but you should also take a closer look at yourself since you also exhibit many of their traits. Your own spiritual beliefs and assertions surrounding your own version of pantheistic and New Age concepts categorizes you very much in the same class as the Christians that you appear to despise so vehemently.

While I certainly have strong anti-religious views and have debated them here I am afraid your hateful Christian bashing crusade in this forum goes way over the top. If you ever felt that they might be persuaded by your arguments or that others might sympathize with you then I feel you are sadly mistaken. Your extreme confrontational approach is very counter-productive and is largely destructive of the efforts of many who genuinely want to persuade Christians of alternative ideas.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Cris
M*W,

Isn’t this ‘you too’ riposte somewhat unimaginative and childish and simply inappropriate?

I understand how you would not wish to be grouped in with the Christians and their religion which you seem to hate with an extreme and strenuous fundamentalist fervor, but you should also take a closer look at yourself since you also exhibit many of their traits. Your own spiritual beliefs and assertions surrounding your own version of pantheistic and New Age concepts categorizes you very much in the same class as the Christians that you appear to despise so vehemently.

While I certainly have strong anti-religious views and have debated them here I am afraid your hateful Christian bashing crusade in this forum goes way over the top. If you ever felt that they might be persuaded by your arguments or that others might sympathize with you then I feel you are sadly mistaken. Your extreme confrontational approach is very counter-productive and is largely destructive of the efforts of many who genuinely want to persuade Christians of alternative ideas.
----------
M*W: Not any more unimaginative and childish than your comment to me. Obviously, you don't read my posts. If you did, you would know that I am not a pantheist. Christians are pantheists. I believe in One God. They believe in three.

As moderator of this forum, you certainly hold biased views. You have not said anything against those who Muslim-bash which has been quite rabid on this forum which is yet unmoderated. You condemn my spiritual beliefs, and you're an atheist! What is this, a witch hunt? Sure sounds like it. Besides, where does it say this is a Christian forum only?

Those of us who choose to express spiritual ideas which may be different than mainstream get bashed by you--the atheist! The reality of it is, I don't hate Christians for what they believe but what they don't want to believe. Sure, I could be a passive member afraid to say what's really on my mind, but what would that prove? I believe the time has come for non-xians to stand up for the truth on a global scale. If we don't do it, who will? Muslims, Jews?

I don't bash Christians because I am ignorant about the dogma of their religion. I bash them because I was one of them, and I saw firsthand how a little fish in a big ocean of lies endeavored to enslave me based on the lie to save me. Talking sweet and holding them gently while trying to free them from the depths of their own delusions is not my style nor does it make for an interesting cyber cat fight if all we posted was sweet nothings for ears that won't hear. They've already heard the soft voice of truth and they drowned it out with their zombie-induced proseltyzing. They're still trapped in their mind-bending prisons of religion. Maybe I've been louder. Maybe I've been meaner. Maybe I've stirred up their dander. Maybe I've hit a nerve or two. Maybe that's what needs to be done to get their attention, make them mad, make them fume, make them fight back. It's when they start to fight back to protect the lies they've believed, they're more likely to find the truth buried deep within their ruffled human emotions. Sweetness and light just won't do it. My daddy used to tell me, "You can't tell a mule anything. You've got to hit it over the head to get its attention first."

Maybe your goal is to have a more docile forum. Maybe you fear commitment, that's why you're an atheist. Maybe you're a Libra always striving for that perfect balance. I don't know if you noticed, Cris, but once I became vocal and started bashing the Christians, more of them signed up on the forum! And they could possibly be paying members, too. Then everybody wins. If you want me to stop bashing them, I will, but in all fairness, of which you haven't been guilty, you would need to stop ALL the bashing that goes on on the religion forum and not just mine. Maybe your goal is to turn it into a totally atheist forum, I don't know. If that's the case, I can see how you'd think I'm as brainwashed as them. I stand up for what I believe, so if you're looking for a hermetically sealed forum of people who don't make waves, then that's what you'll get.`Yet, not once have you said anything to those who have bashed me! Why? Because you're an atheist, either way, what xians believe, and what I believe, are not what you believe. Maybe it's your world that is hermetically sealed and, in that case, you are neither non-biased nor fair as the religion moderator.

 

[Cris]

M*W,

As moderator of this forum, you certainly hold biased views.

As moderator I do very little because everyone behaves very well, mostly. As a contributor I certainly have my own views. I work very hard to keep the two functions separate. My comments here are less about my role as a moderator but as a fellow contributor and I see your posts doing more harm than good. And I note that tiassa has also found it necessary to point out the flaws in your tactics.

In the past and before your time we have had some extreme posters who dominated every thread and topic and while we tolerated them for a while they were eventually banned. These were mostly Muslim bashers. Everyone currently is mild in comparison.

You condemn my spiritual beliefs, and you're an atheist! What is this, a witch hunt? Sure sounds like it.

But I haven’t. This is perhaps paranoia on your part.

Besides, where does it say this is a Christian forum only?

It is interesting that I think we have had more Islamic related threads in the last few months than in the entire history of the forum. But while this isn’t a Christian forum neither is it a “Christian bashing” forum which is how it appears from any thread where you participate, and that means many threads.

Those of us who choose to express spiritual ideas which may be different than mainstream get bashed by you--the atheist!

There is a significance difference between senseless provocative bashing and intelligent critical debate.

Sure, I could be a passive member afraid to say what's really on my mind, but what would that prove?

It isn’t about passivity but your prolific ‘unpleasant’ debating style that is beginning to dominate the forum. A full frontal onslaught creates a heightened defensive reaction, and makes you look very foolish.

Maybe your goal is to have a more docile forum.

No, you can still be forceful, but it is also possible to be courteous and respectful to other members at the same time.

Maybe your goal is to turn it into a totally atheist forum, I don't know.

We did have an atheist forum here for a while, and I voted it be abandoned, everyone simply agreed with each other.

not once have you said anything to those who have bashed me! Why?

Because it is predominantly you who initiates the provocation each time.

you are neither non-biased nor fair as the religion moderator.

I have never claimed to be neutral as a contributor, but as a moderator I maintain a significant hands-off approach which I believe most here respect. And as far as I know no one has complained.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Cris
Jan,

Spirituality certainly exists but its cause appears to be material.

Can you demonstrate otherwise?

The cause of spirituality is indeed material and is also due to the fact that we are spiritual beings temporary occupying material suits. We reflect on our material lives and our spiritual brain struggles to understand and we mature spiritually. I have always wondered why god created sleep? Why do we sleep everyday for extended hours? Sleep and dreams are spirituality. Our mind must rest from being exposed to all these materials and our spiritual brain needs time to rest and record this foreign materials. We sleep because we are spiritual beings and the world is foreign to us....we sleep to rest and comprehend... Something very interesting. Do you know that if you are deprived of sleep, you start hallucinating. Hallucination is a separation from reality. Without the much needed sleep, our spiritual self would separate from the foriegn reality. Without death, we would separate and hallucinate....

We die because we are spiritual beings. We don't live to be spiritual as you state. We are what we are because we are spiritual. If we were purely material beings, then we would live forever and never need to sleep die.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
Jan,

Spirituality certainly exists but its cause appears to be material.

Can you demonstrate otherwise?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by matter is the cause of spirituality.

Love

Jan Ardena.