Are there pro-lifers which are also pro-egg?

Buckaroo Banzai

Mentat
Registered Senior Member
I was wondering. Despite of being a strawman-like analogy (but I don't believe it is indeed a strawman) I use to try to show how the whole idea that the zygote is just like a human is flawed, it's not really any less logic than the idea that life "begins" at ovulation (actually precedes it as well).

And, as there are all the sorts of crazy religious ideas around the world, I was wondering if there are some pro-eggers somewhere. I was searching a bit for it and I've only found a few spoofs.

But I don't think it's really so unlikely. In a certain way, the abolition of contraception methods other than abstinence flirts with a pro-egg ideology. Or maybe not. Maybe it's just that other people "can't be used for pleasure", not that by prohibiting so it would save more eggs.

Anyway, does anyone knows of such a religious policy?
 
I was wondering if there are some pro-eggers somewhere. I was searching a bit for it and I've only found a few spoofs.

But I don't think it's really so unlikely. In a certain way, the abolition of contraception methods other than abstinence flirts with a pro-egg ideology.
Anyway, does anyone knows of such a religious policy?
No no no. You're focusing on the wrong thing! To quote Monty Python from The Meaning of Life:
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/monty-python/every-sperm-is-sacred.html
And here's the video!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9002085385040727366
 
I'm not aware of any 'pro-egg' proponents.

The strictest concept of which I am aware requires the egg to be fertilized.

Just for the record, I'm anti-abortion in the main, but don't find any serious problem with contraception. At the same time, I find sexual activity as mere entertainment to be contrary to Biblical teachings.

Life is never simple, is it?
 
Isn't everyone anti-abortion? Wouldn't everyone like it if no one had to get an abortion? I think pro-choice people just want it to be an option. To keep it legal.
 
Orleander, no. Not everyone is anti-abortion. There are many in the feminist movement who want to make abortion mandatory. (At least it seems that way at times.)

However, you bring up an interesting point and one that is often ignored by both sides of the question: Why do women get pregnant when they don't want a child? Please understand, I'm not dumping all responsibility for this on the women - it's just the woman who 'gets pregnant'. The other side of the same question is Why do men impregnate women when they don't want a child?

The bottom line is sex seems to be viewed as a recreational function these days.
 
I watched a TV show where the guy was screaming over and over that the kid wasn't his even though he was laughing with his friends that he removed the condom at the last second because it feels better that way. I wanted to find out where he lived and strangle his pathetic ass.

The girl is told I'll love you forever and gets dumped as soon as she gets pregnant.

My sister-in-law got pregnant when she was on antibiotics. It would have been nice if she had been told it lessened the affect of her BC pills.

There are all kinds of reasons women get pregnant.

I would like to know more about these feminists you talked about though.
 
Isn't everyone anti-abortion? Wouldn't everyone like it if no one had to get an abortion? I think pro-choice people just want it to be an option. To keep it legal.

I'm pro-abortion. They should be mandatory unless you can pass a test or something.

I love it when the government legislates what people can do with their body based off my beliefs. It makes my dick hard.
 
Have you ever noticed how often someone with a pro-life stance is also a staunch supporter of the death penalty?

I dunno, you whacky americans and your complete inability to appreciate irony, it cracks me up sometimes :)
 
That is funny synthesizer-patel. People want the baby to be born to later be put to death for commiting crimes.
 
I watched a TV show where the guy was screaming over and over that the kid wasn't his even though he was laughing with his friends that he removed the condom at the last second because it feels better that way. I wanted to find out where he lived and strangle his pathetic ass.

The girl is told I'll love you forever and gets dumped as soon as she gets pregnant.

I don't understand. Whatever happened to forced marriage, intimidation and beatings? :confused: Or maybe just personal responsibility and beatings.
 
I was wondering. Despite of being a strawman-like analogy (but I don't believe it is indeed a strawman) I use to try to show how the whole idea that the zygote is just like a human is flawed, it's not really any less logic than the idea that life "begins" at ovulation (actually precedes it as well).

And, as there are all the sorts of crazy religious ideas around the world, I was wondering if there are some pro-eggers somewhere. I was searching a bit for it and I've only found a few spoofs.

But I don't think it's really so unlikely. In a certain way, the abolition of contraception methods other than abstinence flirts with a pro-egg ideology. Or maybe not. Maybe it's just that other people "can't be used for pleasure", not that by prohibiting so it would save more eggs.

Anyway, does anyone knows of such a religious policy?
given that a zygote will exhibit symptoms over a series of a few months that a sperm or egg will not exhibit independently in a million years, I'm not sure where the flaw lies ...
:confused:
 
Have you ever noticed how often someone with a pro-life stance is also a staunch supporter of the death penalty?

I dunno, you whacky americans and your complete inability to appreciate irony, it cracks me up sometimes :)

lets abort the smartest among us. lets keep the killers and evil mother'fers. he, he, he- ebilooshin is fer smart peeple.:D
 
Last edited:
All right, anyway, one can't be "pro-egg"; haploids simply won't develop. It's a false case of regression to absurdity.
 
given that a zygote will exhibit symptoms over a series of a few months that a sperm or egg will not exhibit independently in a million years, I'm not sure where the flaw lies ...
:confused:

All right, anyway, one can't be "pro-egg"; haploids simply won't develop. It's a false case of regression to absurdity.

That's not known for sure, and anyway, it assumes that the "humanity" is defined as/gained with "autonomous" viability, or more precisely, the level of viability that the zygote has, tautologically, whichever it is.

The main problem is that not even the newborn baby is really autonomous; he or she depends totally on someone else to feed and nurture them, or else would die. Some weird hypothetical cultures could compare the act of voluntarily left the baby starve to death to deny the fecundation that the egg normally needs to survive and follow its natural life cycle (which could be stated either in a "anti-baby" or in a "pro-egg" way).

So it emphasizes the tautology, that is not merely a question of capacity of autonomous development, but developmental capacities particular and natural to the zygote stage.

Furthermore, the unfecundated egg can indeed start to develop itself into a fetus. It's a rare event, not known to ever have resulted naturally in a healthy mammal newborn, or in a natural mammal newborn at all (in all the confirmed instances I've read that it happened in humans, it had to be removed/aborted since it was not developing in the uterus, but near the ovaries, as often happens with normal zygotes as well, in which case they also have to be aborted), but I think that the possibility of rare natural occurrences can not be entirely ruled out. It was already achieved artificially with mice, and is viable (or even the exclusive form of reproduction) in other vertebrates. Every now and then we discover of something new, from new instances of parthenogenesis itself, to many weird things that were not thought to be possible (in the early 2000's some Italian woman got pregnant again a few months during an ongoing pregnancy).

If we hold that the development potential means something about "humanity", I think that this not well known potential of unfecundated eggs has some sort of implication. Fecundation or lack thereof can't be seen as a clear-cut divisor of "humanity".

From this perspective, one has to ponder whether eggs are in a certain way not much different from a zygote, that for some reason, would need a very important (and cheap) assistance to assure a higher chance of survival and healthy development, or whether zygotes/embryos are really all that "humanly" imortant just because they have about 40-60% of chance of developing completely.



If it is not "absurd" that a cell in which another cell entered and added some polymers should be considered an human being/person, it does not clear why is absurd the idea that the very same first cell could be human prior to the addition of (half of) the polymers; they're both living cells, they're the same cell, differing in millionth of a gram of some internal chemicals. Of course, I hold the opposite opinion, that neither cell is an unicellular human being. If one is absurd, both are likely similarly absurd, unless there's some really good reason why these polymers have such an "humanly" importance.

(Which is not just to say that they're needed to the normal development; I belive that keratin also is, but no one makes a case that we're not humans until the synthesis of keratin in some cell)
 
Last edited:
.

The strictest concept of which I am aware requires the egg to be fertilized.

I think I've heard that there are those who believe that once the spermatozoa enter the vagina unrestricted by a condom, they shouldn't be killed by means of spermicide gel, for instance. Only natural deaths due to failing to fertilize some egg are permissible.
 
I watched a TV show where the guy was screaming over and over that the kid wasn't his even though he was laughing with his friends that he removed the condom at the last second because it feels better that way. I wanted to find out where he lived and strangle his pathetic ass.

But aren't many of these shows totally staged? I'm almost sure that some are (I'm not american, not familiar with most american TV shows - we do have some Ophra-like shows around here, anyway). I saw in youtube some videos about shows with people who had phobias of ridicule things like cucumbers and cottonballs, very likely staged; once I saw one of a show with Tyra Banks (a black model/hostess) in which there was a nazi family, I'm somewhat less confidend that this one was fake, but that would still be my bet.
 
That is funny synthesizer-patel. People want the baby to be born to later be put to death for commiting crimes.

I find the whole pro life stance of many righties to be deeply ironic - to the point of hilarous surrealism.

for example - pro lifers are often the same people that would happily let you die because you lack health insurance or have inadequate cover - but mention free healthcare and your a fucking commie (better off dead presumably?)

they are the same people who would - given the chance - happily let a poor person starve to death - because they are against welfare

They happily - sometimes enthusiastically - allow the state to remove someones life - but they claim to be against overbearing government intervention.

You couldn't make this shit up! :D

I'll leave you with a few words from two of the greatest American Philosophers of the 20th century - William Melvyn Hicks, and George Carlin:

"If you're so pro-life - why don't you lock arms around cemetaries?" (WMH - Rant in e Minor)

"Why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place? " (GC - Back intown)
 
That's not known for sure, and anyway, it assumes that the "humanity" is defined as/gained with "autonomous" viability, or more precisely, the level of viability that the zygote has, tautologically, whichever it is.

I equate it with diploidy, in which all normal component parts are present to produce a human. If a haploid developed, more power to them, but they would be rare and generally abnormal. Diploid versus haploidy is a very legitimate breakpoint for calling humanity, with exceptions as they arise.

The main problem is that not even the newborn baby is really autonomous; he or she depends totally on someone else to feed and nurture them, or else would die. Some weird hypothetical cultures could compare the act of voluntarily left the baby starve to death to deny the fecundation that the egg normally needs to survive and follow its natural life cycle (which could be stated either in a "anti-baby" or in a "pro-egg" way).

But no such cultures exist. Well, Yale, perhaps, but that's not the point.

The issue of autonomy and independence is a red herring of old date: it is entirely normal for a newborn baby to not be autonomous, but one couldn't say it wasn't human on that basis. Every single form of life requires appropriate developmental conditions, and essentially none exists in isolation from any other, but one can't say they aren't members of that species until they hatch. Innumerable organisms - all organisms - also require quite specific conditions for growth and development at any number of life history stages; nothing is actually autonomous. So the autonomy issue doesn't hold.

If we absolutely must go down this road, it's an issue of normal or typical environment: a fish is not autonomous of water any more than a dog is autonomous of air. Neither is a human infant autonomous of a womb, nor a postpartum baby autonomous (given no other suitable food source) of breast milk. Sooner or later, in the absence of appopriate environment, the organism will die; heterotroph or autotroph both. The difference you're describing is one merely of ontological stage or state applied to a particular species, which would be widely considered a misnomer for every other ontological state and taxon known. In short (and since we're edging towards Roe vs. Wade): lawyers make for bad biology.

Fecundation or lack thereof can't be seen as a clear-cut divisor of "humanity".

The more usual term is fertilization. In practice, fecundity refers to demographic increase rather than the biological act, although technically your term is probably acceptable. However, I actually referred to diploidy and haploidy specifically, the former including gynogens. If you can produce an actually haploid human, my definition will stand corrected.

If it is not "absurd" that a cell in which another cell entered and added some polymers should be considered an human being/person, it does not clear why is absurd the idea that the very same first cell could be human prior to the addition of (half of) the polymers; they're both living cells, they're the same cell, differing in millionth of a gram of some internal chemicals.

But sperm - or gynogenesis, or temperature shock, or UV radiation, or short-term high pressure exposure - provide not merely a "few polymers", but rather the entire second half of a genome. That is no small addition by anyone's standard.

Best,

Geoff
 
Back
Top