Are apparitions real phenomena?

M

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: With the recent passing of Sister Lucia of Fatima fame, I don't recall hearing about any other known apparitions of Jesus (except in certain fry pans, tortillas, tree trunks, and the occasional aluminum siding). My question is, are these apparitions real, or are they just hallucinations of certain religiously programmed faithful who have a strong desire to see and to believe in these visions? But, also, I'm curious why there have been no church accepted as authentic apparitions of Jesus, himself -- only Mother Mary?

In light of what little has been written about Mother Mary, yet bookshelves are rife with volumes about Mary Magdalene, could the identity of these apparitions be incorrect?

Okinrus -- are you out there???
 
Medicine Woman said:
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M*W: With the recent passing of Sister Lucia of Fatima fame, I don't recall hearing about any other known apparitions of Jesus (except in certain fry pans, tortillas, tree trunks, and the occasional aluminum siding). My question is, are these apparitions real, or are they just hallucinations of certain religiously programmed faithful who have a strong desire to see and to believe in these visions? But, also, I'm curious why there have been no church accepted as authentic apparitions of Jesus, himself -- only Mother Mary?

In light of what little has been written about Mother Mary, yet bookshelves are rife with volumes about Mary Magdalene, could the identity of these apparitions be incorrect?

As a visual artist and Tripper i am VERy familiar with being able to see images in things. It really takes you just relaxing your vision, and body and soon you will being seeing stuff, subtle tones and hues of colour and shapes, and images.
With hallucinogenic inspiration it is even more profound.
It's funny....i did this painting and had unknowingly created this sahpe of a bull. i asked this other visual artist if he could see anything in this painting (ie., seeing if he could see it)...he speant ages but couldn't. ONLY when i pointed it out to him could he see it. it was like the Shrodeinger's Cat thingy. that when you actualize a shape then that's it, you can't STOP seeing it, but when you CAN'T you cant
same with these so-called religious images. when someone says, oh, ther's Fatima. Virgin Mary, or Judas. when you grokk on it is when it becomes that for you and it is hard to see some other image. but you can if you try

you can even turn it upside down, hah
Okinrus -- are you out there???
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m nnn oooooooo llllllll
 
Not everyone reads Heinlein. Define grok for the masses please, for I am a stranger, in a strange land.
 
M*W: With the recent passing of Sister Lucia of Fatima fame, I don't recall hearing about any other known apparitions of Jesus (except in certain fry pans, tortillas, tree trunks, and the occasional aluminum siding).
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Medjugorje has had a number of apparitions. And there was an apparition siting in Zeitoun Egypt. Fairly well documented. It was witnessed by thousands and on TV millions saw.

My question is, are these apparitions real, or are they just hallucinations of certain religiously programmed faithful who have a strong desire to see and to believe in these visions?

But, also, I'm curious why there have been no church accepted as authentic apparitions of Jesus, himself -- only Mother Mary?
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First, authentication just means the Church finds no error of the faith in the apparition and no obvious falsity. There's no requirement on anyone to believe it occurred, though. But there have been some apparitions of Jesus. Zeitoun was authenticated by the Church. Some claimed to have seen the baby Jesus .
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we have this long running soap opera. the creator of it got really ill, at the end of the 1960s with hepatitus, etc.....he rcalls that he was lying in his room and the room lihened, and he saw a figure he calls an angel stood atthe foot of his bed

what really healed him was the expression on the 'angels' face which he said was an expression of really deep understanding

Now, the rational person, scientist, sceptic. athiest etc MAy claim it was false or wahtever. but really for the dude it was PRFOUNDLY real, and he'll never forget it. you could tell that seeing how emotional he was telling it
 
I saw Jesus once in the texture of my ceiling, and he gave me some relationship advice. I don't think it was real, but it made an impression on me, so it's effects were real. I think it has to do with the power of suggestion. We often see what we expect to see.
 
spidergoat said:
I saw Jesus once in the texture of my ceiling, and he gave me some relationship advice.

d__How do you know it WAS Jesus?

I don't think it was real, but it made an impression on me, so it's effects were real.

d__Real.

I think it has to do with the power of suggestion. We often see what we expect to see.
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ok, i'm trying to explore this from a kind of ambiguous knw/dont know kinda place, right?
I can dig that on some occasions you are right. for example, a wishful thinking can give you what i call a flash-apparition. i have had one or two. it is weird..hehe.
But that guy on the bed wasn't into angels. he was sick and that event spontaneously happened.
I cvan empathize cause i had a profound experience quite a few years back when i had an 'OBE' and met these entities. i cannot say it wasn't it was SO real, and MEANINGFUL

so. we have to understand what we mean by real?
 
It's hard to say what's real and what's not. Are ideas real? Take, for example, the US constitution. Besides the reality of the ink and paper, it's just a set of ideas, but it shaped the history of a nation. It had real effects on people's lives. In some sense, ideas are more real than reality. Ideas have a life of their own, and as long as there are brains to comprehend them, they are immortal.

I have no particular belief or faith in Jesus or desire to see him, but he stopped by all the same. It didn't make me believe anything supernatural, so I don't think that was his motivation. Another time, I felt projected into a higher plane, literally a flat plane that only my head pierced. Up there, there were two entities, a major one, that commented with surprise at my appearance, and another one in the backround with which the first one talked. He was a little annoyed about the whole thing, not very helpful.

My initial impression was that an apparition will not make you believe, because it is inherently unbelievable. If and when you really see God, you won't believe it, and you don't necessarily have to, anyway it's just not possible.
 
But that guy on the bed wasn't into angels. he was sick and that event spontaneously happened.
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Wait, let's say that again....

"But that guy on the bed wasn't into angels. he was sick and that event spontaneously happened."

Doesn't that say anything?
 
I think that says that the normal state of mind filters out unnecessary perceptions. Visions are more likely to happen under stressed states of mind, which are also when you might need them the most.
 
itopal said:
I had a vision of an infinite-like God in a dream reality that seemed more real than reality; and the dream seemed to last for days. God was an all encompassing black liquid like mass swirling in between the light (stars, galaxies, etc) of the universe;

d___That is really interesting for me where yousay 'black'. From what i have learnt, the dark and the blcak are not top of the list for the patriarchy. in fact the dark is the most feared by that mindset. which is why they are sometimes called 'white light religions. Black, and the 'dark' is very mre GODDESS than 'God'. black is very sacrred in Goddess religion because it is where light originates from. The Void/Unknown/womb. like the seed in the black soil that generates

it showed me the nature of many things; then asked me to "step into the flame"; over and over; when I finally said "yes"; it thought the number "1" into my mind.

d__not duality, '2'?

But then again, it wasn't an apparition; it was just a extremely weird dream.

Was it real, of course it was, real psychological phenomenon, occurring in my subconscious mind.
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Well, that is psychiatric lingo belonging to the last century i suppose. does that EXPLAIN it?
what i am doing is trying to use reason to look At that symbolism. what i sometimes find is that people who claim to be rational just right off vision. i rather feeel that insight and reason can work togther cause they have never been apart
 
spidergoat said:
It's hard to say what's real and what's not. Are ideas real?

d__when i think of 'ideas', i think about Plato, cause it was he who started a dogma about the Realm of Ideas, which for him where static, unchanging and the source of changing reality, which he believes was inferior to 'Idea'. In that respect i think he was on a wrongun. That his belief was divisive and false. i don't equeste it with the healing vision i mentioned which was nont-divisive and was healing

Take, for example, the US constitution. Besides the reality of the ink and paper, it's just a set of ideas, but it shaped the history of a nation. It had real effects on people's lives. In some sense, ideas are more real than reality. Ideas have a life of their own, and as long as there are brains to comprehend them, they are immortal.

d__but those ideas were responsible for the subjugation of Native Americans. And encouraged over-procreation (in my notes i have a speech by one of the Founding Fathers who advocates everyone go forth and mutiply to fill up the land. this idea runs counter to the Indigenous idea of not overpopulating to as not to burden the land and other species


I have no particular belief or faith in Jesus or desire to see him, but he stopped by all the same. It didn't make me believe anything supernatural, so I don't think that was his motivation. Another time, I felt projected into a higher plane, literally a flat plane that only my head pierced. Up there, there were two entities, a major one, that commented with surprise at my appearance, and another one in the backround with which the first one talked. He was a little annoyed about the whole thing, not very helpful.


d__hehe...you've had some weird visions dude!

My initial impression was that an apparition will not make you believe, because it is inherently unbelievable. If and when you really see God, you won't believe it, and you don't necessarily have to, anyway it's just not possible.
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I dont think of 'God'. i tend to feel Goddess. Why? cause mythologically she Is Earth. Immanent, and transcendental. so to experience 'Her' is really Deepening to all of that...AND....
 
I use "he" as a convention, there wasn't any gender apparent in these visions, (except for the Jesus one) which did happen while in an altered state of consciousness. I think God is a hermaphrodite.

You can make an argument that altered states connect your brain to a real but parallel universe, which is usually closed off to the conscious mind.

What if someday, computers become so powerful that life forms emerge? If they only exist as information, are they real? Philip Dick explored a similar idea with robots (which become the movie Blade Runner). Can robots be so complex that they become living?
 
spidergoat said:
What if someday, computers become so powerful that life forms emerge? If they only exist as information, are they real? Philip Dick explored a similar idea with robots (which become the movie Blade Runner). Can robots be so complex that they become living?
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Lifeforms like humans are probably just "biological machines"...
 
spidergoat said:
I use "he" as a convention, there wasn't any gender apparent in these visions, (except for the Jesus one) which did happen while in an altered state of consciousness. I think God is a hermaphrodite.

d__Tht was the original understanding of Goddess. or 'Goddessing'.....just found that term yesteday, meaning th process rather than noun. i like it and may use it more

You can make an argument that altered states connect your brain to a real but parallel universe, which is usually closed off to the conscious mind.

d__being more Romantic and not so SFish i prefer lifting the veil of the Goddess. that wa it feels like to me. you are looking DEEP into Nature

What if someday, computers become so powerful that life forms emerge? If they only exist as information, are they real? Philip Dick explored a similar idea with robots (which become the movie Blade Runner). Can robots be so complex that they become living?
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I believe this is THE dream of the patriarchy. ie., that in the beginnnings they are in awe of birthing woman.....then, some scholars suggest they bging to realize their part in conception (this seems dodgy to me. i am sure they would have know....) and then they claim that their seed is THE best, and equate it with the spirit and woman as mere receptacle.....then we see their myths where male gods birth. and NOW they have a dream of their machines giving birth
All this is not thought through. it insists on some kind of set up that could accomadate a computerized world with elites producing androids willy nilly. but where in this scenario do others fit in.....the people, the animals? the whole living balance of the world which is a lving organism?
 
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