Archaeologists reveal evidence of the Wife of God

SkinWalker

Archaeology / Anthropology
Moderator
Her name was Asherah and she was the wife of Yahweh.

Archaeology (2005) reports on the works of biblical scholar William H. Dever, which include a book as well as examinations of artifacts discovered in sites such as Khirbet El-Kom, Ta'anach, and Kuntilet Ajrud.

Asherah has long been recognized as the one of the most important (if not the most important) goddesses in the Canaanite pantheon. CritiquingChrist spoke of her in another thread this year, but I thought it would be interesting to devote an entire thread to discuss the implications that such knowledge has in biblical scholarship.

Dever argues that "Asherah was buried long ago by the establishment" as Jewish religion turned from a polytheistic worldview to a monotheistic one. The origin of "Yahweh" as the god of Israel has long be speculated on by archaeologists and biblical scholars and some basic culture changes are present in the archaeological record in the Early Iron Age period of the Palestinian hill country. At that time, numerous small rural settlements appear, consisting of simply houses of sheep and goat herders, who seem to reject the raising of pigs. Pigs, it should be noted, are direct competitors with humans for food: they eat basically what we eat, making their non-viability in economic terms a possible progenitor for the pork taboo.

Looking through the books of I & II Samuel and I & II Kings, it's easy to see that Asherah was still prominent on the minds of the Israelis and that Yahweh's wife continued to be a part of ritual and cult practices until the conquest of Judah (ca. 1000 to 586 BCE). Biblical writers, however, lived primarily after the period of exile and were in the midst of a period of religious reform that included the creation of a monotheistic religion in place of a well-established polytheistic one.

The Artifacts

Yahweh and Asherah are directly associated on artifacts found in the sites I mentioned above, both in text as well as illustration (Dever, 2005). It was in Ajrud that plaster walls with the inscriptions of blessings "Yahweh by his Asherah," as well as blessings by the gos Ba'al and El. El is the obviously the singular form of Elohim, the latter, in itself, suggestive of a Jewish pantheon of gods.

Dever notes that biblical scholars were skeptical and reluctant to accept these inscriptions at face value when they were discovered (in the 1970s I believe), but the newest discoveries are causing some people to re-think their positions.

Two large storage jars were discovered at the same site that bear not only similar inscriptions, but depict both Yawheh and Asherah, side-by-side. One of the inscriptions on the jars reads, "Yahweh and his Asherah." This site has a depiction of the pot sherd that has the inscription and images, which I'll offer a last comment on at the end of this post.

Polytheism in the Holy Land seems to be the norm in the archaeological record, even among Jewish peoples, until around 586 BCE, which, in my mind, makes Christianity a very young religion indeed. Navajo religion has endured longer.

Why did monotheism replace polytheism? Was it a matter of the establishment of priestly power, status and wealth? This might also explain the shift from a more androgynous, perhaps even matriarchal, religious mindset to a patriarchal one. Dever considers the bible "revisionist history" and I'd have to agree. The evidence is there that the "one god" concept is a contrived one. Even the bible alludes to this in passages like thou shalt have no other god before me. If there were no other gods, why mention them. Indeed, in that sentence, Yawheh doesn't state that there aren't any, only that they cannot be placed before him. Perhaps this refers to a group of figurines on an alter table: Yawheh goes up from, the rest behind him.

The exile itself was probably a catalyst for the shift to monotheism. The priests, who didn't want to be unemployed, may have used the excuse that Yawheh was pissed and was punishing them. Yawheh becomes the main god for a large portion of the Israelites, El/Elohim for another (both of these gods exist in Genesis).

So why did polytheism replace monotheism?
Was Asherah pushed aside by the new patriarchal establishment of priests? If so, perhaps there were female priests until the exile (or maybe this is already established)?
Could the sherds Dever mentions be out of context? I read a rebuttal somewhere (I'll have to dig a bit if anyone is interested) that indicated that "the asherah" referred to the cow. This is a possibility, but the inscription is just above the heads of the two figures and the smaller, more diminutive figure with the smaller headdress is obviously female (note the two breast circles that she shares with the lyre player).

MedicineWoman and CritiquingChrist, what do you think of this? I'm really hoping CritiquingChrist is still around, it would be nice to have a professor's input and I know *MW* will offer some.

References

Dever, William H. (2005) Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel, Eerdmans Press,

Scham Sandra 2005 The Lost Goddess of Israel Archeology Vol. 58, No. 2
 
SkinWalker: Her name was Asherah and she was the wife of Yahweh.

Asherah has long been recognized as the one of the most important (if not the most important) goddesses in the Canaanite pantheon.
*************
M*W: Who was Asherah? According to Merlin Stone in When God Was A Woman, Asherah, also known as Ashtoreth, was a despised pagan deity of the Old Testament. She was called many different names. Scribes continually tried to disguise her by usine the masculine gender "Astarte." Astarte was the Great Goddess known to the Canaanites as the Queen of Heaven. The ancient bible worshippers had been praying to a woman god! They also called her "Innin," "Inanna," "Nana," "Nut," "Anat," "Anahita," "Istar," "Ishtar," "Isis," "Au Set," "Ishara," "Ashtart," "Attoret," "Attar," and "Hathor." She was a female god. The Goddess Asherah had been worshipped for a thousand years before the time of Abraham (1800 BC - 1550 BC) who worshipped the male deity Yahweh. Archeologists have traced Asherah's worship backward to about 25,000 BC. Asherah was also known as the wife of Ba'al by biblical times. "Ba'al" translated means "husband" or "lord."
*************
SkinWalker: Polytheism in the Holy Land seems to be the norm in the archaeological record, even among Jewish peoples, until around 586 BCE, which, in my mind, makes Christianity a very young religion indeed. Navajo religion has endured longer.
*************
M*W: Polytheism was popular in Egypt in the time of Moses, but when Moses was Pharaoh Akhenaten, he enforced the monotheist god which was the sun and astrology explained their religion. The people weren't happy with this new religion forced on them, so they wanted to get Moses out of power. Moses (Akhenaten) was dethroned and he fled for his life taking with him those Egyptians who believed in the monotheistic sun god.
*************
SkinWalker: Why did monotheism replace polytheism? Was it a matter of the establishment of priestly power, status and wealth? This might also explain the shift from a more androgynous, perhaps even matriarchal, religious mindset to a patriarchal one. Dever considers the bible "revisionist history" and I'd have to agree. The evidence is there that the "one god" concept is a contrived one. Even the bible alludes to this in passages like thou shalt have no other god before me. If there were no other gods, why mention them. Indeed, in that sentence, Yawheh doesn't state that there aren't any, only that they cannot be placed before him. Perhaps this refers to a group of figurines on an alter table: Yawheh goes up from, the rest behind him.
*************
M*W: Interesting theory about the placement of the figurines! We must remember that we are dealing with ancient Egyptian culture here -- not Jewish culture. I just revisited the Egyptian exhibit at our local museum of natural history. The Egyptians did have many small figurines of their gods. Some were so small they were viewed through a magnifying lens. They were the size of small pearls but perfectly carved into their various and sundry dieties.

I believe polytheism quickly changed into monotheism at Moses's whim. I don't really believe it changed because of power, status or wealth. After Moses got the hell outta Dodge, the Egyptians returned to their polytheistic religion. While Moses and his band of Egyptian Ibiru (later changed into the Hebrews), as their leader, he needed to establish some rules for the 30 mile or so journey (aka The Exodus) to the Promised Land. So, Moses went up onto the mountain with his "ark" and eventually came down with some tablets that God himself had written. I don't believe this, though. Moses's god was Aten the sun god. I believe Moses connected the heat and fire of the sun with the arklight of the battery he called the "ark." These commandments didn't come from god, they were etched with the cutting power of the ark. Only Moses could interpret them, so he could control his weary nomads. These "commandments" were meant for the Ibiru people and no one else! Let's take a look at the Ten Commandments from Moses's perspective:

Exodus 20:
1-Moses said, "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Translated, Moses meant that he wanted the Ibiru to revere him as "the LORD thy God," who was leading them out of Egypt and their bondage to the polytheistic religion. Moses wanted the Ibiru to worship him, essentially, since he took on the name of Aten as Akhen Aten which means "Sun God." Moses believed he was the Sun God, and the Ibiru were to worship no other gods except him.

2-Moses said, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Translated, Moses meant that the Ibiru were not to mold any figurines (plentiful in the matriarchal societies) nor bow down to them for Moses was the one god. When he mentions "the third and fourth generation of them that hate me," he is talking about the Ibiru. Allegedly they wandered in the desert for four generations. These are the generations of Ibiru he is talking about. These were Moses's "commandments" he wanted the Ibiru to keep.

3-Moses said, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

Translated, Moses meant that the Ibiru shall not talk about Moses behind his back causing dissention among the nomads.

4-Moses said, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Translated, Moses meant that they would journey Sunday through Friday, but Friday at sundown, they would make camp and do no work but rest. Saturday was the sabbath day, and they would worship it.

5-Moses said, "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."

Translated, Moses meant that the Ibiru should follow the leadership of their parents who were following Moses's leadership. It just makes for a peaceful trip. The little Ibiru children were tired and bored and kept asking over and over again, "are we there, yet?"

6-Moses said, "Thou shalt not kill."

Translated, Moses meant just that. One must not kill another nor another's goat or sheep.

7-Moses said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Translated, Moses meant that adultery was considered as illegal and immoral sexual relations with another man's wife or daughter. However, the custom of the day was to sire as many children as one could throughout their entire life. When one's wife became barren from menopause, a man could legally take his daughter or another woman without fault or ridicule.

8-Moses said, "Thou shalt not steal."

Translated, Moses meant just what he said. Stealing from anther Ibiru was forbidden. Moses tried to reel the evildoers in to keep peace on the journey.

9-Moses said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Translated, Moses meant that lying on each other would not be tolerated.

10-Moses said, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Translated, Moses meant "coveting" as envy or jealousy of a neighbor's property, and "coveting" could mean simply trying to bargain for a neighbor's house, wife, servants, or his herds.

The Ten Commandments were written by Moses who thought of himself as god. After all, the pharaohs of Egypt believed themselves to be divine.
*************
SkinWalker: The exile itself was probably a catalyst for the shift to monotheism. The priests, who didn't want to be unemployed, may have used the excuse that Yawheh was pissed and was punishing them. Yawheh becomes the main god for a large portion of the Israelites, El/Elohim for another (both of these gods exist in Genesis).
*************
M*W: Back to the story of Asherah. In Egypt the Ibiru worshipped Asherah as Isis or Hathor. Back then, women held a very high status in Egypt. The writers of the Old Testament (and we may be talking about Moses here), said Yahweh told the Ibiru to destroy the altars and break the figurines of the matriarchal societies. The later Hebrew peoples worshipped Queen Esther -- just another name for Asherah or Ishtar, Queen of Heaven.

The symbolism of the tree in the Garden of Eden and the symbolism of the tree on which Jesus was to have be hanged as analogous. Trees were the symbol of the Goddess. Trees were fruitful and bring harvest, and goddesses were fruitful and fertile. The tree in the Garden of Eden gave humans wisdom. Goddesses are associated with trees and goddesses are wise.

Another symbolic analogy is of the serpent in the Garden of Eden who made Eve wise, and the serpents associated with goddess worship. The patriarchy set out to kill the serpent, and in doing so, they killed the goddess -- no, they didn't kill the goddess -- they just put her in hiding. The Goddess is still very much alive and well and ready to regain control of the Earth!

The Hebrews hated the female religion and its relics. The forbidden fruit of good and evil brought knowledge and wisdom to humanity. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of the Goddess and her sexual customs. The Patriarchy had finally overcome.
*************
SkinWalker: MedicineWoman and CritiquingChrist, what do you think of this? I'm really hoping CritiquingChrist is still around, it would be nice to have a professor's input and I know *MW* will offer some.
*************
M*W: The myth of creation as told in Genesis place the serpent (HWWH) and the woman (HWWH) or Eve (HWWH)(the same word for each) was in the position to be like gods -- the secret knowledge of the goddess, the serpent, and the tree -- gave us the secret of sex and how to create life.
 
SkinWalker said:
Her name was Asherah and she was the wife of Yahweh.

Archaeology (2005) reports on the works of biblical scholar William H. Dever, which include
Scham Sandra 2005 The Lost Goddess of Israel Archeology Vol. 58, No. 2

as usual, people want to feminize Christianity, by doing weak archeology & analyze, the God of Israel was not married, He was & is Spirit, something that His new charges, recently released Hebrew slaves straight from Egypt, could not grasp, it took them a long time to purge those pagan influences from their life.

Baal was married to Asherah, the LORD wanted to take down these two Canaanite gods from their lofty heights & groves
from:
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cach...l+"Asherah+pole"+bible&hl=en&client=firefox-a
ASHERAH POLE = A wooden pillar (similar to a totem pole) representing the goddess of nature worshipped by the Canaanites. Thus the altar was dedicated to Baal (the Canaanite’s male deity) and the Asherah pole represented their female deity.

Judges 6:26 (NIV) Then build a proper kind of altar to the LORD your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering.”

Judges 6:27 (NIV) So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the LORD told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.

Judges 6:28 (NIV) In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal’s altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!

From:
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/snotes/note1112.html
The worship of Baal was accompanied with lascivious rites (1 Kings 14:24), the sacrifice of children in the fire by parents (Jer.19:5), and kissing the image (1 Kings 19:18; Hos 13:2). Baal was often associated with the goddess Astoreth (Judg.2:13), and in the vicinity of his altar there was often an Asherah. (Judg.6:30; 1 Kings 16:32-33,R.V.)"

Of the goddess ASTORETH the same dictionary says:
"... She was the goddess of sexual love, maternity and fertility. Prostitution as a religious rite in the service of this goddess under various names is widely attested. The identification of 'Ashtart with Aphrodite is evidence of her sexual character."
"Ashtaroth (plural of Astoreth). In connection with the plural of Baal, a general designation for the female divinities of the Canaanites ..."
"Asherah refers to a wooden pole or mast which stood at Canaanite places of worship (Exo.34:13); originally it was, perhaps, the trunk of a tree with branches chopped off, and was regarded as the wooden symbol of the goddess Asherah, who like Ashtoreth, was a type of fertility ... It was erected beside the altar of Baal. (Judg 6:25, 28)"
 
ohhhhh Randolphoooo, 'God' forBID that ANYthing should be FEMINIZED.....!...you DON'T want THAT DO you?....wonder how you was born? MUSt have been out of daddy, right?
 
Randolfo said:
as usual, people want to feminize Christianity,

Really? I've not noted that this was a "usual" thing. Indeed, I don't think it can be done. The christian cult is inherently male dominated in every way. The female is made out to be the constant evil-doer or bane of man.

Randolfo said:
by doing weak archeology & analyze,

I curious, just how do you delineate between "weak" and "strong" archaeology? I ask because the work cited by Dever and others is based on some of the most detailed archaeology being conducted today in both methodology and analysis.

Perhaps your definition goes like this:

"weak archaeology - that which doesn't support the christian worldview."

"strong archaeology - that which offers support for the true word of god, even if it means ignoring data that appears to the contrary since it was obviously put there by Satan to deceive the archeologists."

Randolfo said:
the God of Israel was not married, He was & is Spirit, something that His new charges, recently released Hebrew slaves straight from Egypt, could not grasp, it took them a long time to purge those pagan influences from their life.

Which god of Israel? Apparently there were several. It is pretty clear that Yawheh had a wife. Or if Asherah was Ba'al's wife, that Yawheh was screwing her on the side.
 
Wow, Mrs. God? That makes more sense. A devine couple who gave birth to the universe through heavenly fucking...

...almost makes you want to be a Christian.
 
Everything you say is a lie...
there is no division in god...
god is not separated from anything...
god is what unifies the separated...
 
out of intrest i wonder how many christans know that there have been female popes

but on topic, i wonder if what i was watching about the templar was correct and that it was the roman catholic church that changed judasium into a monothiastic church rather than mosas
 
Im not sure, Its been a long time since i stuided this. It may have been there was only one but maybe not. No it wasnt the "early" church i was talking about tho, i ment in the hight of its power in the middle ages
 
It is true that with Hinduism that all of the Major Gods come with their feminine Consorts. Metaphysically it is interpreted as the Male Aspect of Divinity reciding in Heaven while the Female Aspect descends into The World. Male - Heaven. Female - Nature.
 
NO. that is the patriarchal interpretation where a 'sky 'Father' first 'marries' and then subdues/opresses/ 'Mother Earth'.....and later--where we are now--does away with her entirely and we get 'Machine'! lorded over by 'supreme white male' rationality aka menchanistic-materialistic science.....
 
duendy said:
ohhhhh Randolphoooo, 'God' forBID that ANYthing should be FEMINIZED.....!...you DON'T want THAT DO you?....wonder how you was born? MUSt have been out of daddy, right?
first of all, spell my name right, I'm Mexican, my name is not spelled with the english convention of the pseudo-greek "ph", that consonant mix is unpronounceable in spanish, it's an "f" sound, so its spelled with an "f", in spanish its not 'ran-dol-p-ooo' (silent 'h'), that spelling invalidates spanish witting & pronunciation conventions,
secondly, all cults raise up some aspect of error, in this case the so-called wife of god,
thirdly, many agnostics, atheists scientists have an innate sense that they must crush or discredit Christianity in any way; because to them its wrong, intolerant, out-dated, myth, condemning, etc...
fourth, many people want to believe that Christianity is wrong or something & they'll latch on to any excuse to deny it, witness "the Da Vinci Code" phenomena
fifth, don't let your personal agenda (being gay), influence all your beliefs, theories etc. about others, some of your own pre-conceived notions may be wrong, even you can't be right all the time, no matter what your friends tell you, sorry,
(I've had enough science to know biology, genetics, DNA, etc..)
don't jump to conclusions, or you'll then become what you hate in others, namely; biased, prejudiced, intolerant
(I've had enough psychology to know the diff)

you state that you are 'gay' in the following from:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=44474
duendy said:
...
i was VERy much offended by his reply. so i am asking you, as you seem to be THe main represeantative of Mormonism in these forums: What are your views, and mormon's views on homosexuality?
....

but you have spelt out you are against my sexuality, which you believe is a sin.....?

FYI: the closes english pronounciation to my name would be 'ran-dole-foe'.
 
I'd say that agnostics, atheists, etc. make attempts to discredit christianity because the cult makes overt attempts to control all aspects of culture, in spite of the fact that it's roots are based in mythology rather than facts or empirical data.

The archaeological findings are pretty clear: early judeism accepted many gods. There is also considerable archaeological evidence to suggest that the so-called "written word of god" is simply the political and prejudiced spin of the establishment. The pulp that this word is written on, when reviewed as literature, doesn't hold up as a consistent work. Indeed, when looked at as literature -something that is considered heresy by the establishment for good reason since it is a threat to the religious order and hierarchies that depend upon blind devotion to mythology- there are many missing elements; elements that are inconsistent with previous or later elements; elements that don't match the archaelogical record; elements that are contrary with the epigraphical records of other cultures; etc., etc.

So don't blow that word of god shit up our asses and conduct pseudo-critiques of the atheist agenda when all you're capable of doing is quoting the bible in order to prove the bible. All that tree/pole shit is clearly redaction and edit created to manipulate the masses into giving up their illogical polytheistic ways in favor of the more illogical monotheistic cult of the day.

Duendy and I disagree on many things, but your ad hominem remarks were a coward's method of debate. Sure, you cited some out of context places where Duendy is discussing homosexuality in an attempt to justify the remark, but that doesn't make it anything more than an ad hominem attack, since his sexuality -which you haven't clearly demonstrated to be homosexual- isn't germaine to the fact that Yawheh had a wife.

Indeed, it is likely that the original idea of the "trinity" was a husband, wife and kid, which appears to be present in the Canaanite archaeological record.

I note that you also didn't answer my question about how one goes about delineating between "weak" and "strong" archaeology.
 
SkinWalker said:
So don't blow that word of god ...and conduct pseudo-critiques of the atheist agenda when all you're capable of doing is quoting the bible in order to prove the bible. All that tree/pole shit is clearly redaction and edit created to manipulate the masses into giving up their illogical polytheistic ways in favor of the more illogical monotheistic cult of the day.
man, what ad hominen attacks, biased, intolerant, so, far I haven't quoted the Bible, but if you prefer, I'll look for a suitable quote
& I'd say you have a problem, not me

Duendy and I disagree on many things, but your ad hominem remarks were a coward's method of debate. Sure, you cited some out of context places where Duendy is discussing homosexuality in an attempt to justify the remark, but that doesn't make it anything more than an ad hominem attack, since his sexuality -which you haven't clearly demonstrated to be homosexual-
that's easy, maybe you don't understand english, because if he didn't state he was 'gay' in that statement, then he was implying it just to bash Brutus1964 unfairly,
btw, most gays need to justify their lifestyle, a God that says "no", needs to be discredited, its not 'ad hominen', its basic psychology, to rationalize

isn't germaine to the fact that Yawheh had a wife.

Indeed, it is likely that the original idea of the "trinity" was a husband, wife and kid, which appears to be present in the Canaanite archaeological record.
no, thats a mormon concept, you got your religions mixed up, just like the early pagans

I note that you also didn't answer my question about how one goes about delineating between "weak" and "strong" archaeology.
sorry for leaving you out, but since I'm a slow typist, I only answer or comment on a few,
BTW, I took both cultural & physical anthropology, archeology, field archeology (3X), geology, & enough sciences to be conversant in most aspects except QM & the higher math for TP,
so, weak is: that which comes from scientists' biased mindset that have preconceived agendas, notions on what is 'truth', it also can be; quick analyze of evidence without going deeper into context
I consider BoM archeology weak, mormonism can't prove that BoM people lived in the Western Hemisphere, because there is no evidence, just the say-so of the BoM & a lot of hopeful adherents

strong; all sources agree strongly, like; geology, linguistics, art, oral or written history &/or lit, dating methods, stratigraphy, remains, the evidence in the dirt
the following can be attested to via multiple sources:
corn & chillies originated in the MesoAmerican cultural area,
Mayans invented the mathematical concept of “zero” independently, & had a complex writing system

btw, the wife of god falls under weak,
the Bible has been used in archeology, because wonder of wonders, most place names have reminded close to what they were in Biblical times, even people that many doubted existed have started to come out, as the evidence in the dirt reveals the truth.
David was considered a myth-hero at one time, Shinar & the Hittites were considered made-up place names & people, the Bible always talks about people trying to 'marry' worship of the one true God with the local gods, customs, why wouldn't that site be a Syncrenistic one left over by, lets say Jezabeel?
Hey, I'll put my belief in God, man is the one with the agenda, what's your's?

fyi:
http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/Anth3/Courseware/Chronology/04_Stratigraphy.html
 
Randolfo said:
so, far I haven't quoted the Bible, but if you prefer, I'll look for a suitable quote & I'd say you have a problem, not me

That wasn't you in your first post in this thread quoting Judges?

Randolfo said:
most gays need to justify their lifestyle, a God that says "no", needs to be discredited, its not 'ad hominen', its basic psychology, to rationalize

It isn't germane to the fact that Yahweh had a wife. That's the topic of this thread. Needling someone's alleged sexuality is simply a cowardly way of sidetracking the discussion and avoiding his comments. But this is something that the religious nutters are good at: demonizing that which they don't agree with and calling people or ideas "homosexual" as a means of derision.

Randolfo said:
SkinWalker said:
Indeed, it is likely that the original idea of the "trinity" was a husband, wife and kid, which appears to be present in the Canaanite archaeological record.

no, thats a mormon concept, you got your religions mixed up, just like the early pagans

Then why, in Jeremiah (7:17-18) do we see a passage like: "Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven..." I would agree that there is no mention of a child, but a queen implies a king. Is not the "king of heaven" the alleged speaker? Yahweh?

Randolfo said:
weak is: that which comes from scientists' biased mindset that have preconceived agendas, notions on what is 'truth', it also can be; quick analyze of evidence without going deeper into context

I'll agree with that. I'll even agree with the notion that the BoM archaeology is weak when the research designs are influenced by the Mormon cult. But a good thing about them is that they seem to be interested in funding more than doing, so an archaeologist that is excavating in regions where they hope certain finds will be made can do so without much direct influence by the Mormons. In this case their cult beliefs work in favor of the archaeologist since they are convinced they are right and don't worry about being disproved.

You can't really say that about "biblical archaeology," since the archaeologists in the "holy land" tend to be believers and think they are "proving" the bible and biblical accounts. Often, they ignore data which aren't supportive. THIS is weak archaeology.

I don't think it can be demonstrated that Dever and others who are currently working digs or analyzing data recovered from Israel, Palestine, Jordan, etc. are conducting weak archaeology simply because they are being objective about their research questions and are working for largely secular organizations like major universities.


So what specific instances has recent secular archaeology in the Near East failed to take a multi-disciplinary and complete, fair evaluation of the archaeological evidence? You mentioned stratigraphic evidence and then linked to a very rudimentary site on stratigraphy, is this something you believe they've failed to consider in the excavations at Kuntilet Ajrud?

Randolfo said:
btw, the wife of god falls under weak,
the Bible has been used in archeology, because wonder of wonders, most place names have reminded close to what they were in Biblical times,

And yet you fail to get specific. I'm interested. I'm not defending the work of Dever as much as I am looking for legitimate counter-perspectives. But simply saying he's wrong because he just has to be isn't a logical argument. If it's because you simply haven't read his and other works (I'm still waiting on the book myself) on the subject, then say so and drop out of the discussion. If you can find reasoned counter points on the internet with links to share, do it. If you have a philosophical opinion, give it. But going on about the homosexual agenda in proving the wife of god; giving us rudimentary terms of geology, anthropology and archaeology to show us you took a class; and saying all those who suggest the ancient cults of Israel recognized a polytheistic Yahweh/Astarte (or Asherah) combination are wrong because it can't be is unproductive.

Of course many people/places in the bible have been shown to exist. Most works of literature in history draw upon real people and places, particularly those that wish to be perceived as 'truth.' But there are those things that have never been demonstrated in the archaeological/geologic records: the alleged exodus of the Jews.


Randolfo said:
Hey, I'll put my belief in God, man is the one with the agenda, what's your's?

Objective interpretation of the past. Truth. Shedding our society of the superstitions of ancient cults. Something that bible bumpers can know little about.

Randolfo said:

Is there some point to that very rudimentary site on stratigraphy?
 
SkinWalker said:
It isn't germane to the fact that Yahweh had a wife. That's the topic of this thread.

Needling someone's alleged sexuality is simply a cowardly way of sidetracking the discussion and avoiding his comments. But this is something that the religious nutters are good at: demonizing that which they don't agree with and calling people or ideas "homosexual" as a means of derision.
not derision, just pointing out the fact that as a gay, he more than likely has a hidden agenda, unstated here, but more openly stated elsewhere.

so, are you saying that gays can be counted on to fairly judge Christianity on its own merits? I doubt it, they stand with you; biased because their lifestyle demands it or they would have to live a chase & diff life

you on the other hand, show your bias plain & simple, no hidden agenda or feign of fairness,
& anyway, I'll let others do the demonizing, you're doing such a good job, did I strike a chord? thou are protesting too much, let Duendy defend himself, if he likes, if he's unbiased, let him say so & state why we can trust his unbiased opinion, as opposed to mine or yours

Then why, in Jeremiah (7:17-18) do we see a passage like: "Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven..." I would agree that there is no mention of a child, but a queen implies a king. Is not the "king of heaven" the alleged speaker? Yahweh?
you would make a good cult member, they too, just read one or two verses, quote out of context & make a point or defense of their theology thusly,

would you mind reading a little more, like Ch 7 from verse 1 to 18 or more? you'll get a diff sense of what the whole thing is about & not get stuck on an erroneous point, of which you wish to prove

But there are those things that have never been demonstrated in the archaeological/geologic records: the alleged exodus of the Jews.
alleged? would that be like the alleged Lembi-Jewish connection?
people usually know where they come from, they have oral tales, hero & foundation myths, that normally say where they come from. so are the greeks originally form greece or the turks from turkey, what say they? humm, where are the Aztecs from?

Is there some point to that very rudimentary site on stratigraphy?
yes, making sure that anyone that never had encountered the word, knew what it meant.
do I need your permission or something?
Not everyone is a trained archaeologist in this forum, in case you were wondering
 
Ad hominem sentiments, talk of hidden agendas, continued reliance on biblical mythology to support beliefs rather than real evidence.

Where's the physical evidence of the alleged exodus? How many years was it they were supposed to be in the desert? 40? The number was over half a million Jewish men that left Egypt for Mt. Sinai then on to "invade" Canaan. Bible bumpers like to say there were several million people including women and children... but there's not a sign of them in the archaeoligical record. We can see the trash, structures, burials, and tools of a few thousand Natufians going as far back as around 11,000 BCE, but we can't find evidence of several million people wandering the desert for 40 years at only around 2000 - 1000 BCE?

What archaeology does demonstrate is that there were a few rural settlements where many ovicaprids assemblages are present, but no swine.

I'm up for discussing the archaeological record with you. I'm even up for being schooled on it if I've got it wrong, especially since I'll admit that Canaanite archaeology is something I've only just started reading.

But I won't be surprised if you chose not to limit your discussions to archaeology and epigraphy that isn't limited to biblical mythology. Your style is more consistent to the neo-evangelicals who deride homosexuals as having "agendas" and labeling those things you find distasteful as "homosexual" or related to it.

Did you "strike a chord?" Yeah, I'd say so. The cowardly, bigoted, and hypocritical stance that you neo-evangelicals take toward the rest of humanity is absurd and distasteful. Fundamentalists like that seem to have no problem singling out a sexual orientation that others may or may not have control over, but ignore the adultery, rape, and drug abuse that exists within their own rank and file. Take that homosexual shit to another thread and use this one to talk about archaeological evidence of early Judaic and Canaanite pantheons.
 
Back
Top