Ancient aircraft

Mike Dyall-Smith from the University of Melbourne

"We dealt with this on the AEL discussion list over a year ago. There is a much more mundane explanation (that is historically interesting in itself). These pictures have gained some notoriety because they have been promoted by  "new-age or ufo buffs ". Egyptologists easily recognize that the apparent strange craft are just  illusions produced by:
  • erosion of the stone surface (look at the damage over that roof area!)
  • a process of re-carving and filling in the stone to replace some of the hieroglyphs. When the filling falls out bits of the old and new glyphs overlap and form 'strange signs'.
The technical term used is 'palimpsest'.
Anyone well versed in egyptological inscriptions would tell you lots of recarving of inscriptions went on in ancient Egypt as ruling kings sought to acquire the work of previous pharaohs, or to discredit them.
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Ms. Katherine Griffis-Greenberg,The American Research Center in Egypt and of the International Association of Egyptologists

"... I am afraid that you have been subjected to the famous "Abydos helicopter" mania, here. There is a simple explanation to what you are seeing, at least, as we see it in Egyptology. There is no mystery here; it's just a _palimpsest_ (though without the use of that term, and which is defined as "... A manuscript, typically of papyrus or parchment, that has been written on more than once, with the earlier writing incompletely erased and often legible" AHED). It was decided in antiquity to replace the five-fold royal titulary of Seti I with that of his son and successor, Ramesses II. In the photos, we clearly see "Who repulses the Nine Bows," which figures in some of the Two-Ladies names of Seti I, replaced by "Who protects Egypt and overthrows the foreign countries," a Two-Ladies name of Ramesses II. With some of the plaster that once covered Seti I's titulary now fallen away, certain of the superimposed signs do indeed look like a submarine, etc., but it's just a coincidence.
What is happening in the photographs is quite clear; just consult Juergen von Beckerath, Handbuch der aegyptischen Koenigsnamen, Muenchner aegyptologische Studien 20, pages 235 and 237.

This issue comes up from time to time on such academic e-mail lists as the Ancient Near East (ANE) List and so on, so we're all pretty familiar with it.
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Peace.
 
Originally posted by goofyfish
This issue comes up from time to time on such academic e-mail lists as the Ancient Near East (ANE) List and so on, so we're all pretty familiar with it.
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Do you think the Egyptologists are correct, and that it is either coincidence or foul play, or do you think that there may well have been these crafts in ancient times??

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Think I have to go with the experts on this one, unless and until something more conclusive is presented to support those who believe the carvings depict aircraft.

Although...

SWLandRover1.jpg


SWLandRover2.jpg


Coincidence? :D

Peace.
 
Originally posted by goofyfish
Think I have to go with the experts on this one, unless and until something more conclusive is presented to support those who believe the carvings depict aircraft.

What makes you think the experts are right, seeing as their explanations are a little simplistic and vague?

Why could they not have existed in those times?

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Quite often, simple explanations are the best; the case for palimpsest does not seem vague. Why could they not have existed in those times? Where is there additional evidence of Egyptian society being advanced enough to produce these craft?

The world is littered with these frustrating ancient images which appear to reflect our own world. Perhaps these artisans were the forerunners of modern science fiction writers. Just as they have sometimes accurately predicted technological advancements, who's to say some ancient mason didn't forsee planes and helicopters?

Peace.
 
Originally posted by goofyfish
Quite often, simple explanations are the best;

Couldn’t agree more.

….the case for palimpsest does not seem vague.

Quote,

A) erosion of the stone surface

What kind of erosion produces carvings like that?
Are there any other carvings which have been eroded into something as brilliant as that?

a process of re-carving and filling in the stone to replace some of the hieroglyphs. When the filling falls out bits of the old and new glyphs overlap and form 'strange signs'.

At what period of time are they talking about?

Where is there additional evidence of Egyptian society being advanced enough to produce these craft?

Why do you think it is Earth/human technology?

The world is littered with these frustrating ancient images which appear to reflect our own world.

Yes…. Strange that, isn’t it?

…. .who's to say some ancient mason didn't forsee planes and helicopters?

From where or from whom though?

Love

Jan Ardena
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These sorts of arguments really make me question the sanity and/or intelligence of the human beings around me.

So you see some ancient carving that may or may not depict a flying machine of some kind. So what? Haven't you ever heard of imagination? The ancients were human, just like us, they had imaginations. They fantasized. They created elaborate and fantastic myth structures and told wonderful stories about dragons and magic and gods and mystical far away realms, just like we do. Why do you have so much trouble with that concept? Do you think the creators of Star Trek actually saw a the USS Enterprise floating in the sky one day? No, they made it up. We humans have always told stories and made up fantastic tales. We did it then, obviously, and we do it now.

I shudder to think of our remote descendants finding a preserved film reel of Star Wars and believing we were making a documentary...
 
At what period of time are they talking about?

Why is that important to your thoughts on this one?


Why do you think it is Earth/human technology?

Why do you think it is not?


Yes…. Strange that, isn’t it?

Not necessarily. Perhaps coincidental. I create a random doodle while waiting on hold to speak with my doctor. Through some freak course of events, it is preserved somewhere for several thousand years, and when discovered, someone exclaims, "Look! They had Anti-Time Collision Vehicles way back then!"


From where or from whom though?

Why not from imagination?



You are asking a lot of questions...
what is your take on these images?

Peace.
 
There was some tribe in South America that archeologist thought may have developed flight and then they were able to build a balloon using only technology available at the time.

I know that dosen't prove that the tribe had flight it just proves it's possible.
 
Is there any evidence that Stone Age cultures have ever made anything which uses aerodynamics and all, regardless of whether they understood the physics and all? Answer: Boomerangs. But boomerangs aren't exactly space shuttles or helicopters.
 
Wonder anybody has a translation to this:

In 1875, the Vaimanika Sastra, a fourth century B.C. text written by Bharadvajy the Wise, using even older texts as his source, was rediscovered in a temple in India.

It dealt with the operation of Vimanas and included information on the steering, precautions for long flights, protection of the airships from storms and lightening and how to switch the drive to "solar energy" from a free energy source which sounds like "anti-gravity."

The Vaimanika Sastra (or Vymaanika-Shaastra) has eight chapters with diagrams, describing three types of aircraft, including apparatuses that could neither catch on fire nor break.

It also mentions 31 essential parts of these vehicles and 16 materials from which they are constructed, which absorb light and heat; for which reason they were considered suitable for the construction of Vimanas.

This document has been translated into English and is available by writing the publisher: VYMAANIDASHAASTRA AERONAUTICS by Maharishi Bharadwaaja, translated into English and edited, printed and published by Mr. G. R. Josyer, Mysore, India, 1979 (sorry, no street address). Mr. Josyer is the director of the International Academy of Sanskrit Investigation located in Mysore.
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vimanas

from kmguru's post

It dealt with the operation of Vimanas and included information on the steering, precautions for long flights...
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We come across this sort of story all the time (one such example is here) and I have yet to see any evidence for practical flying machines existing in ancient India.

There are any number of translated Sanskrit texts that refer to flying machines or "vimanas". In the Ramayana, for example, the demon Ravana abducts the heroine Sita in a huge airborne chariot named Pushparaga. Heck, there are Arabic texts that talk about flying carpets, too. This doesn't mean they ever existed.

Some Sanskrit texts on practical construction do discuss some of the purported mechanisms of flying machines as well as those of more ordinary machines for which there's artifact evidence. Some people are misled by this into thinking that because the flying machine is discussed in a sober and practical way instead of being part of a legend of miraculous events, it must therefore have been developed in reality. However, the same texts also often discuss perpetual-motion machines, so you can see that reality is not necessarily a primary concern here.

The "practical details" of the flying machines are also not particularly practical. I quote from the above link:
Bhoja's Samardngana-sutradhdra states that the main material of a flying machine's body is light wood, or laghu-ddru. The craft has the shape of a large bird with a wing on each side. The motive force is provided by a fire-chamber with mercury placed over a flame. The power generated by the heated mercury, helped by the flapping of the - wings by a rider inside, causes the machine to fly through the air.
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Mercury is a popular substance in Sanskrit texts for the production of a number of different "magical" effects, but I appeal to the SciForums "Science Advisory Board" to pronounce on the feasibility of running an aircraft on power generated by heated mercury.

Of course, if you don't restrict yourself to works actually attested in the Sanskrit textual tradition, you can pretty much find anything you want. To quote from the link again:
The Vaimdnika-sdstra is an ancient Sanskrit text that "describes a technology that is not only far beyond the science of the times but is even way beyond the possible conceptual and scientific imagination of an ancient Indian, including concepts such as solar energy and photography."

It is indeed true that this book contains many interesting ideas about aerial technology. But it is important to note that it was written in the early 20th century by a psychic process known today as channeling.

The story behind this is presented in the introduction to G. R. Josyer's translation of the Vaimdnika-sdstra. There it is explained that knowledge in India used to be transmitted orally, but as this tradition died out, writing on palm leaves was used. Unfortunately, palm leaf manuscripts do not last very long in the Indian climate, and large volumes of old written material have been lost due to not being regularly recopied. [This part is, sadly, only too true.]

This is certainly true. But Josyer went on to say that the lost texts "remain embedded in the ether of the sky, to be revealed like television to gifted mediums of occult perception." The medium in this case was Pandit Subbaraya Sastry, a "walking lexicon gifted with occult perception," who began to dictate the Vaimdnika-sdstra to Mr. Venkatachala Sarma on August 1,1918. The complete work was taken down in exercise books up to August 23, 1923. In 1923, Subbaraya Sastry also had a draftsman prepare some drawings of the vimanas according to his instructions.
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Without in any way impugning the sincerity or the abilities of Pandit Subbaraya Sastry, I merely note that this type of revelation is not generally accepted as a valid historical source.

Peace.
 
Without in any way impugning the sincerity or the abilities of Pandit Subbaraya Sastry, I merely note that this type of revelation is not generally accepted as a valid historical source.
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I agree. What is needed here is a good translation of any advanced stuff that can be built and tested ( and not something that is already available in today's technology).

About mercury and fire, bird flapping its wing etc... IMHO...there are three possibilities.

1. As information was passed from father to son (sruti) - since the great-grandson has never seen a Vimana, it is possible that the words were redone to make sense with the bird as the analogy. It is difficult to describe titanium carbide and nonotubes or plasma injection that gets translated in a primitive society after the great war.

2. I have personally read many years ago about the origin of vedic people from the mizar star system (78 light years away). May be the advanced technology was there and allwe get is great stories of battle there....

3. The simplest explanation is - it is a great science fiction.

What is unsettling to me is that, when the nature lovers got dropped off from Mizar star system, they only came with a tricorder and set of knowledge books. The result of the trocorder is evident from the materia medica that was compiled (I think the 3rd Veda). Without it , it would take thousands of years to detail out the pharmacopeia.

Another possibility is that we somehow had a grand civilization many million years ago - even if we did, I doubt people would remember anything to pass on...

So, back to the SF theory.....unless we can build something that works.....
 
I dont see how there can be 3 or 4 on the same piece of block that look like aircraft, and be accidental. If it was just one, yea it could just be a coincidence, or an erosion or whatnot. but there are like 3 or 4 in a row, which is odd.
 
Originally posted by bruce02
I dont see how there can be 3 or 4 on the same piece of block that look like aircraft, and be accidental. If it was just one, yea it could just be a coincidence, or an erosion or whatnot. but there are like 3 or 4 in a row, which is odd.
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I tend to agree with you.

My question is, why does it have to be a fake, people from all times and places have experienced these phenomenons before?
Who are we to say that they are one football stud short of a football boot?

I believe, trying to find physical proof of the crafts existence pointless, instead we should find out if those carvings are definately false, because if not, then it would be safe to assume they are true, and that would change of lot of thought proccesses. :eek: :D

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Another thing, that bothers me....

We moved from stone age to modern space age in say 10,000 years. What is so special about this period that could not have happened in the past 120 million years?

May be life moves in 10,000 year blocks - blows up and starts all over again.....as we are about to do with matter-antimatter bombs, black holes etc....
 
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