All The Nations

[The Evelyonian]

I split this off from the "Death to Apostates (?)" thread because it was an interesting discussion but really had nothing to do with the OT.

The topic, in a nutshell, is "Was Jesus' message meant only for the Jewish people or for everyone?"

Here is the discussion thus far.

If people choose to no longer believe Jesus that is their will.

If they turn around and speak against Jesus then their words will be countered.

Killing people who cease to believe Jesus has never been an action that Jesus called upon His followers to do.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

Correction...those Jews who cease to believe are left to Yahweh to slaughter...followed by an eternity of torment in hell.

Gentiles werent even considered.

"Go not among the gentiles, but rather to the lost sheep of Israel."

Your correction is no correction at all.

My statement stands. We Christians where never called upon by Jesus to kill those who come to disbelieve Jesus.

Yes God will bring upon them the second death in the lake of fire for their evil of rejecting the Messiah Jesus. But the original question was confined not to God himself but to the followers of the Messiah Jesus on earth.

So my answer is Correct.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Sure, but what I corrected was your understanding of the word 'those'.

"Those who come to disbelieve Jesus."

Who are they?

The Gospels teach that they were Jews, not gentiles. Jesus makes it clear that his message (that the kingdom is at hand) is ONLY for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Therefore, there is nothing for the gentiles to disbelieve.

Only at the time of the Message being given by Jesus was the message restricted to the Jews. But after when the message what complete Jesus called upon His followers to go out into the world so that all nations and people could be given the same message and the same opportunity to accept or reject it.

So the limitation was only a temporary restriction.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No that was Paul the tent salesman from Tarsus.

Jesus never said any such thing.

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


Matthew 28:16-20 (NIV)

No it was the risen Jesus in Jerusalem

Acts 1
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And werent the Jews spread out all over the known world?

It would then require a ministry 'to the end of the earth' to reach them all.

Again, he states in two separate passages that his message is not for gentiles, and that has come only to gather the lost sheep of Israel.

You persist because of pride and rebellion to vainly persure your faulty argument and the more you do the more you reveal yourself.

The Evalyonian even quoted a clearer scripture to you but you choose to ignore it in persit of your agenda.


Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

All the nations is exactly that. All the nations not just the Jewish nation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Sure, Jewish disciples of all nations. I see no contradiction there.
Would a Jew living in Rome or Persia be denied, simply because they didnt live in Judea?

How long will you deny his direct words...."Go NOT among the gentiles."

Except the greek term used in Matthew 28 is "ethnos" which does not mean nation in the sense of countries but nation in the sense of race. The usage is too broad to refer only to the Jewish people.

 

[Carcano]

Except the word in Aramaic translations is also 'nations'...not 'peoples'.

 

[The Evelyonian]

Yes, but the Aramaic word used there is "Ama" which means basically the same thing as ethnos, nations in the sense of race.

 

[GeoffP]

I'm with Matthew on this one. "All nations" means everybody.

 

[Carcano]

Yes, but the Aramaic word used there is "Ama" which means basically the same thing as ethnos, nations in the sense of race.

Not according to the translators. If you believe the translators are wrong then the whole bible is up for grabs.

 

[davewhite04]

Carcano:

Are you suggesting that all the nations on earth were Jewish?

 

[Carcano]

Carcano:
Are you suggesting that all the nations on earth were Jewish?

No, but all nations of the known world at the time had some Jewish constituents.

 

[davewhite04]

I doubt that...

If you do provide proof, then I will say "So what?"

 

[davewhite04]

What a ridiculous claim Carcano.

So you think there were Jews in China at 33AD?

 

[davewhite04]

I can tell you now there wasn't any in England.

 

[The Evelyonian]

Not according to the translators. If you believe the translators are wrong then the whole bible is up for grabs.

I do not believe the translators are wrong.

The Aramaic word used is "Ama" which means "nations" in the sense of "races of people".

The Greek word used is "Ethnos" which means "nations" in the sense of "races of people".

The use of the word "nations" is not an error on the part of the translators. It is simply that "nations" has more than one meaning.

Nation

Noun

Singular
nation


Plural
nations

nation (plural nations)

1. A group of people sharing aspects of language, culture and/or ethnicity.

The Roma are a nation without a country.

2. A historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture

The Kurdish people constitute a nation in the Middle East

3. (law) (international law) A sovereign state.

Though legally single nations, many states comprise several distinct cultural or ethnic groups.

 

[davewhite04]

The English language has evolved too.

Nation could have meant tribe a few hundred years ago.

 

[Carcano]

The Aramaic word used is "Ama" which means "nations" in the sense of "races of people".

The Greek word used is "Ethnos" which means "nations" in the sense of "races of people".

The use of the word "nations" is not an error on the part of the translators.

According to you it is...as you just demonstrated.

 

[Carcano]

So you think there were Jews in China at 33AD?

There were Greeks in Afghanistan in 275 BC!

 

[davewhite04]

In essence The Evelyonian has described that Jesus wanted His message spread to everyone.

When you read the bible now does it mean anything different to this?

(sorry for cutting in The Evelyonian)

 

[davewhite04]

There were Greeks in Afghanistan in 275 BC!

So?

 

[Carcano]

Evelyonian has described that Jesus wanted His message spread to everyone.

And Jesus described his message as being only for Jews.

 

[davewhite04]

Obviously this is incorrect.

 

[The Evelyonian]

According to you it is...as you just demonstrated.

From an interlinear greek translation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat28.pdf

The Strongs concordance entry for Ethnos

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=Ethnos

From an interlinear Aramaic Translation (unfortunately the Aramaic characters here would only display in hexadecimal)

Taken from http://www.dukhrana.com/peshitta/

 

[The Evelyonian]

From an Aramaic lexicon (note the word numbers and definitions are the same as the interlinear entry in the post above)

Taken from http://www.peshitta.org/lexicon/