al-Taqiyya

[WildBlueYonder]

I'm looking up the idea that muslims can lie, to defend islam, there's a word for it: "al-Taqiyya" ;

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/L/lying.html
http://rationalthinking.humanists.n...ce_of_islam.htm

just wondering if this is used only in emergency situations or in everyday life, like in "Sciforums" chatrooms?

several months ago, muslims claimed that there was 360 joints in the human body, now normally that would not make a diff, unless you were a doctor or were about ready to get operated on

from:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=5944&page=1&pp=20

Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!
are they sure? I hope they are not doctors, I'd be afraid they may not find what you're looking for. There are 176 joints in the human body, read more physiology books
and the number is: 176
check top of page 3, its on Adobe, so I can't copy on my lame comp
http://tools.ecn.purdue.edu/~me597k/Lectures/posture_terminology.pdf

then there was the total distortion of what an ancient circumcision entailed & what Paul had to do to Timothy

from:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=31147

from: A. N. Wilson, Paul The Mind Of The Apostle, Pimlico. 1998. ISBN 0-7126-6663-X p. 128
if we believe that Paul did insist on Timothy undergoing circumcision, it is perhaps worth reminding ourselves of the three essential parts of the ritual, without which it is not complete. The first part is milah, the cutting away of the outer part of the foreskin. The is done with one sweep of the knife. The second part, periah, is the tearing of the inner lining of the foreskin which still adheres to the glans, so as to lay it wholly bare. This was (and is) done by the operator - the mohel, the professional circumciser - with his thumb-nail and index finger. The third and essential part of the ritual is mesisah, the sucking of blood from the wound.

this discription of the procedure would surprise 90% of Jews & 100% of converts, hey, maybe now they'll even get more 'gay' converts?

*the 10% would be jews that don't know anything about judaism, except maybe what a 'seder' is, "its a tree"

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Oh, Silence, thy voice is deafening!

 

[WildBlueYonder]

oh, no muslims will defend or refute this practice? why?

 

[Tiassa]

You should make a better topic out of it.

I don't see the issue you're whining about.

 

[Leo Volont]

Honestly, do you really think that it is even possible to lie about such trivia. When people hardly care what the truth is about things that are so unimportant, how can you accuse anybody of lying. I would think a lie is a lie when it involves disception in something that actually matters somehow.

You are only making yourself look meanspirited.

 

[surenderer]

I have already answred him in another thread but i suppose he thinks i should follow him from thread to thread answering his anti-islamic questions...You see his problem is that most Muslims on this forum have PM'ed each other to ignore his posts because they (his posts) try to agitate muslims rather than promote understanding between us(look at the topics of his previous posts) 99% of the time he just cuts-and-pastes and offers no opinion of his own which shows he is an unintelligent adult or a 6 year old(at lest the 6 year old trys to learn however)



"al-Taqiyya" ; is a practice not apllied to be 99% of muslims because God has told us that"the way has been made clear for you, you know what to do and what not to do, and if you are uncertain then stay away from it" if all muslims belived in that practice as you claim then how could we also believe in martydom?(dieing for Gods cause?) you cant have it both ways....ok MR. c.a.p?(cut and paste)

 

[Leo Volont]

Randolpho,

Did you bother to read the URL's you posted? Apparently a Muslim can pretend to renounce his faith in order to save his life. This dispensation came because a group of Believers were attacked on their way to Medina and were forced to renounce Islam at the point of the sword. Later they escaped their cohersion and made good on arriving at Medina. Mohammed gave them this dispensation out of goodhearted charity.

And you would twist it into something evil. They are not lying to spread their faith. They are permitted to say whatever it takes to save their lives. Unfortunately, in modern times death is delivered by bombs from a mile high which are smarter then the people who are dropping them. You should be happy now. Not being able to save themselves with lies, they are killed on the spot.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I don't see the issue you're whining about.

the fact that a certain group of people feel that they can lie as a matter of course, because the ends justify the means. how can you have an honest debate or exchange of ideas?

no remorse, but praise for outwitting opponents?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Honestly,

that's the problem, honesty

do you really think that it is even possible to lie about such trivia.

from my part or theirs?

When people hardly care what the truth is about things that are so unimportant, how can you accuse anybody of lying. I would think a lie is a lie when it involves disception in something that actually matters somehow.

so, truth does not matter?

You are only making yourself look meanspirited

wh? for telling the truth?

 

[Tiassa]

the fact that a certain group of people feel that they can lie as a matter of course, because the ends justify the means

The "fact"?

I'm going to go with an echo of someone else's point: "What were you reading? Was it really the links you provided? Because I just don't see it."

 

[WildBlueYonder]

"al-Taqiyya" ; is a practice not apllied to be 99% of muslims because God has told us that"the way has been made clear for you, you know what to do and what not to do, and if you are uncertain then stay away from it"

so, are you among the 1% & how would we know it, either way?

 

[surenderer]

so, are you among the 1% & how would we know it, either way?

The same reason that dispite your aggresive posts I dont assume you are some KKK clansman or maybe i am wrong Look at it like this.... my posts promote understanding while yours promote division and hatred so who really is more likely to be evil between me and you?....lol peace

 

[Tiassa]

Sounds normal to me

so, are you among the 1% & how would we know it, either way?

I think we would be able to tell because he would be in a position where al-Taqiyya was necessary in the first place.

I will point out that Jews, in essence, are allowed to lie as well. It's in the First Commandment. This isn't to point out that, "Since the Jews do it ...." No, rather, it's the argument underlying the idea that the First Commandment allows Jews to lie. The basic idea is that the First Commandment is not a call to monotheism, but a standard within henotheism. In this sense, God essentially says to the Jews, "I have so many things in store for you. And when they put the sword to your neck and tell you to bow to some false idol, you do what you have to. But do not for even the space of a heartbeat forget who I Am!" (See "Hebrew Henotheism" for more.)

So right there we see a parallel to what your Answering Islam link provides as the first occasion in which deception is allowed: to save one's life. It is within the bounds of possibility that God should allow the Muslim to pay lip service to an unjust captor or ruler in order to continue the jihad.

And let us consider President Bush, or any American president. Or any head of state in general. And think for a moment of the platitudes one pours on one's distinguished guests. Surely at least some of this is bullsh@t. But if speaking of the magnanimous generosity of a foreign potentate means thanking him for going to the great effort of basic respect--and all the sarcasm contained therein on my part--well, it's better to declare that it is an honor and a pleasure to have _____ here than tell him what you really think and land yourself in a war.

In such simple processes of accommodating one's neighbors in order to seek grounds for progress for a large number of people, we see a satisfaction of the second condition given by the Answering Islam page.

The bit about persuading women is an interesting one. I mean, dating in America is nothing but false advertising. Trim your nails, cut your hair, clean the flat, wear a shirt with a collar, for heaven's sake ... promising fidelity. What? Sure, I have a problem with the whole arrangement in general, no matter whose label you stick on it. But how many people tell me my values are somehow perverse? So many people seem to think this sort of Madison-Avenue courting is a good idea that I am compelled to reassess my objections to such hollow and dishonest behavior. As such, I have no basis to directly criticize my Muslim neighbors, lest I choose to not look some of my close friends in the eye ever again.

Thus I see the third condition listed at Answering Islam fulfilled.

The fourth ... I'm inclined to see Muhammad on the military campaign in that. Although the exception being Tabuk is ... interesting. It hints that this aspect of al-Taqqiya may well be a cultural tradition that predates Muhammad himself. Beyond that ... everybody deserves to come back from a fishing vacation and tell a "big whopper"/"one that got away" story without going to Hell. The big whopper story is essential to human evolution.

This is one of those occasions where I wonder why people have such problems with the idea of Muslims being human. As with retaliation against injustice--e.g. the refusal to "turn the other cheek"--it seems to me that al-Taqiyya is merely a concept codifying a very human set of behaviors.

And why not? Humans are human ... according to God's plan.
_____________________

See Also

• "Hebrew Henotheism" - see http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm

 

[skywalker]

Randolpho,

Did you bother to read the URL's you posted? Apparently a Muslim can pretend to renounce his faith in order to save his life..

lol he doesn't read half the things he posts here. LOL. That is what he has been taught in evangalist and southern baptist churches. Sorry rando kido. But looks like every one is seeing your real face..lol

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I think we would be able to tell because he would be in a position where al-Taqiyya was necessary in the first place.

I will point out that Jews, in essence, are allowed to lie as well. It's in the First Commandment. This isn't to point out that, "Since the Jews do it ...." No, rather, it's the argument underlying the idea that the First Commandment allows Jews to lie.

ahh, Tiassa, could you print your copy of the 1st Commandment or post the URL that says that, I'm sure millions of Jews would be relieved to know that they could now, just tell evrybody theuy are christian, atheists in the West; muslims, buddhists, hindus in the East, what a relief, no more holocausts, shucks, I wish that that version would have been available to the 6 million Jews prior to 1939, it would have saved them any trouble with the Germans

 

[Tiassa]

Tiassa, could you print your copy of the 1st Commandment or post the URL that says that

I assert it as self-evident in the face of what the First Commandment is and says.

I'm sure millions of Jews would be relieved to know that they could now, just tell evrybody theuy are christian, atheists in the West; muslims, buddhists, hindus in the East, what a relief, no more holocausts, shucks, I wish that that version would have been available to the 6 million Jews prior to 1939, it would have saved them any trouble with the Germans

Oh, come on, Randolfo. You can do better than that.

If you are told at the stake of your life to pay homage to ... oh ... say ... Cthulhu, would you? Would you perform the rite and say the prayers and prostrate yourself before the Waiting Dreamer? Every day of your life?

 

[Leo Volont]

If you are told at the stake of your life to pay homage to ... oh ... say ... Cthulhu, would you? Would you perform the rite and say the prayers and prostrate yourself before the Waiting Dreamer? Every day of your life?

A lot of young people do not understand that life gets cheaper with age. By the time a person is old enough to say for the first time "I am too old for this stuff", it indicates that suddenly there are hundreds of things that are 'worse then Death'. So you are correct. Mature people would rather die then go through some pain in the butt empty ritual everyday.

That is why they don't like to enlist older soldiers in the Army. As soon as they get a little bit too hungry, too itchy from bad hygiene, or too cranky from lack of sleep, they will just tire of it all and say "The Heck with it! Charge!" And run his platoon into machine gun fire. Young Men who love life are the worst cowards compared to older men who have seen all of life and are willing to take a pass on a bunch of repeats -- the best their future has to offer.

A young man once remarked surprise when he was shown a photo of Jews lined up for the Gas Chamber. "Why didn't they rush the guards or at least run for their lives?" "Well", I said, "maybe they wanted to die with a little dignity as well as with courage".

I have many hopes that I entertain for this New Dispensation that is only a few years off. But the other night when I was reading in my easy chair and my left shoulder crampted up, I thought "Oh, this is a heart attack". And I entoned an AUM and sat back and thought of God and the Blessed Virgin. I had been perfectly willing to let everything go.

But we have these young men supposing that Holocausts could be prevented by letting millions of people turn their lives into painful and annoying lies. Well, maybe he would do it. Wonder what else he would do to save his life? he already as much as said he would renounce Christ. This must certainly prove that he would engage in disgracefully perverted sexual activities to save his life. but if that is the case, then maybe you wouldn't have to threaten his life. Maybe he would renounce Christ and do perverted sexual acts with farm animals just so his assigned parking space wouldn't be moved out from under the covered parking area. Wow, he has turned into quite a coward, huh?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Yes the Truth matters, but you are the one who is lying. In the URL's you yourself provided it says that Muslims are given the dispensation to renounce Islam in order to save their lives.

so you can denouce your religion to save your life? man, that would save thousands of christian lives yearly, man, that could have saved millions of jews too. by example, in the Bible many people are told to renouce their faith, usually they are thrown into the lions' den, fire, or the sword, what are Jews & christians made of stronger stuff? mulsims have to cowar under lies to save their skin? don't trust their god to help them in this life or the next?

as for saving your life by lying, as far as I know, only Spain has been able to enforce that & [deleted]

But this isn't what you say, you liar. Liars like you say that Muslims are allowed to lie to spread Islam -- the very opposite of the Truth -- they are only allowed to tell an untruth in order to subtract from Islam.

lies or truth, let people read the info, draw their own conclusions, here's something from the darkside,
from:
http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature articles/02-12-2002.asp

Taqiyya and kitman or ‘holy hypocrisy’ has been diffused throughout Arabic culture for over fourteen hundred years since it was developed by Shiites as a means of defence and concealment of beliefs against Sunni unbelievers. As the Prophet said: 'he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives.’

The skilful use of taqiyya and kitman was often a matter of life and death against enemies; it is also a matter of life and death to many contemporary Islamic terrorists. As so often in the history of Islam, a theological doctrine became operational.

[deleted quote]

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I say,

Tiassa, could you print your copy of the 1st Commandment or post the URL that says that

you say,

I assert it as self-evident in the face of what the First Commandment is and says.

Jews & Christians would say?

from:
http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html#c1
(hebrew)
“I am the LORD your God.”
— Ex. 20:2a

If you are told at the stake of your life to pay homage to ... oh ... say ... Cthulhu, would you? Would you perform the rite and say the prayers and prostrate yourself before the Waiting Dreamer? Every day of your life?

as Columbine proved, no, Christians will not deny Christ, why should I?

from:
http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2002/04/daily-04-20-2002.shtml

April 20, 1999 • Killers Target Athletes, Minorities--And Christians

Christian martyrs in 20th century America? It happened on this day, April 20, 1999. When Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold began shooting up their school, they did not fire randomly. In their twisted minds, Athletes, minorities and Christians were the enemy.

 

[Tiassa]

Randolfo

Jews & Christians would say?

Depends on the Jew. Depends on the Christian.

as Columbine proved, no, Christians will not deny Christ, why should I?

I feel as if I let the Nazi bit slide. But ... come on, man--between that and Columbine you're getting a little exploitative:

• Do you really think that a Jew standing before a Nazi in 1938, Berlin, had a chance in hell of passing himself off otherwise? Not many, not many.
• I hadn't heard about the Columbine shooters stopping to poll people's religion before deciding whether or not to execute them.

Ignatius of Antioch prayed for his combat with the lions. In the end, his identity politic motivated his martyrdom--an essential suicide (cf Ignatius, Romans, 4). Given a chance to simply "go through the motions" of a pagan service in order to save his life, would he? Absolutely not.

And so there exists, within an interpretation falling somewhere between the henotheistic and the kathenotheistic that, while not necessarily traditional, runs squarely through the practical.

In the early days of Christianity, and again in the modern era under tyrannical regimes, Christians have concealed themselves and sought to deceive in order to protect their faith in God. Should God condemn them for not openly choosing a route that can lead to death? Up until the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union, Christians in the US hailed as heroes smugglers who ran Bibles behind the Iron Curtain. The same with East Germany.

That is, Christians lied in order to protect and spread the faith.

Or, we could go to the source:

Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a maid came up to him, and said, "You also were with Jesus the Galilean." But he denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean." And when he went out to the porch, another maid saw him, and she said to the bystanders, "This man was with Jesus of Nazareth." And again he denied it with an oath, "I do not know the man." After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, "Certainly you are also one of them, for your accent betrays you." Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, "I do not know the man." And immediately the cock crowed. And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, "Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times." And he went out and wept bitterly. (Matthew 26.69-75, RSV)

And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the maids of the high priest came; and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him, and said, "You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus." But he denied it, saying, "I neither know nor understand what you mean." And he went out into the gateway. And the maid saw him, and began again to say to the bystanders, "This man is one of them." But again he denied it. And after a little while again the bystanders said to Peter, "Certainly you are one of them; for you are a Galilean." But he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, "I do not know this man of whom you speak." And immediately the cock crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had said to him, "Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times." And he broke down and wept. (Mark 14.66-72, RSV)

Then they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high priest's house. Peter followed at a distance; and when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat among them. Then a maid, seeing him as he sat in the light and gazing at him, said, "This man also was with him." But he denied it, saying, "Woman, I do not know him." And a little later some one else saw him and said, "You also are one of them." But Peter said, "Man, I am not." And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, "Certainly this man also was with him; for he is a Galilean." But Peter said, "Man, I do not know what you are saying." And immediately, while he was still speaking, the cock crowed. And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said to him, "Before the cock crows today, you will deny me three times." And he went out and wept bitterly. (Luke 22.54-62, RSV)

The maid who kept the door said to Peter, "Are not you also one of this man's disciples?" He said, "I am not." Now the servants and officers had made a charcoal fire, because it was cold, and they were standing and warming themselves; Peter also was with them, standing and warming himself. The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly. Why do you ask me? Ask those who have heard me, what I said to them; they know what I said." When he had said this, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, "Is that how you answer the high priest?" Jesus answered him, "If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?" Annas then sent him bound to Ca'iaphas the high priest. Now Simon Peter was standing and warming himself. They said to him, "Are not you also one of his disciples?" He denied it and said, "I am not." One of the servants of the high priest, a kinsman of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, asked, "Did I not see you in the garden with him?" Peter again denied it; and at once the cock crowed. (John 18.17-27, RSV)

And this from Peter, the Rock upon which so much stands.

Let's look at what you quoted from my post:

I will point out that Jews, in essence, are allowed to lie as well. It's in the First Commandment. This isn't to point out that, "Since the Jews do it ...." No, rather, it's the argument underlying the idea that the First Commandment allows Jews to lie.

I added some boldfaced and italic accents this time. Because I also wrote, as part of the same paragraph:

The basic idea is that the First Commandment is not a call to monotheism, but a standard within henotheism. In this sense, God essentially says to the Jews, "I have so many things in store for you. And when they put the sword to your neck and tell you to bow to some false idol, you do what you have to. But do not for even the space of a heartbeat forget who I Am!" (See "Hebrew Henotheism" for more.)

Since you find the notion so disdainful, perhaps you might fill me in as to why?
____________________

• Ignatius of Antioch. "Epistle to the Romans." See http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-19.htm
• The Bible, Revised Standard Version - see http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html