Agnostic - The wisest option for man?

[KennyJC]

There are many fundies here, and also many atheists. But how can the religious people claim all of this knowledge of our creator? And how can the athiests claim to know beyond doubt that there is no 'God'?

Isn't it healthier to simply say "I don't know"?

There is a lot of ignorance on this subject on both sides, and maybe sitting in the middle of it all is the best step forward to perhaps actually getting answers?

 

[Lori_7]

It's definitely healthy to be humble and honest whatever your perspective is.

I've had God interact with me. I've had things happen that have proven to me without the very slightest doubt that God is more real than anything in this world. I'll be honest about that.

 

[cato]

I've had God interact with me.

can you explain this interaction for us? I am curious.

I don't really like "agnosticism" because most people take it to mean something to the effect of: there is a god, but god is a mystery to me.

I practice my own brand of agnosticism, I call it Stoic Agnosticism. Stoic Agnosticism basically mean that I acknowledge that there may be a god, but it is just as likely for the tooth fairy or easter bunny to exist.

 

[Lori_7]

Stoic Agnostic,

He's interacted with me on various levels....different circumstances, different ways. I don't really have it figured out you know? How this whole spiritual realm thing works. But it's a spiritual interaction...telepathic you may call it. I've had it come in the form of ideas, dreams, visions, telepathic conversation (aka prayer). I've had prophecy revealed to me. Sometimes He comes to me through other people who usually are unaware, sometimes via the internet, sometimes through art, like music or poetry, paintings or stories. I've seen Him manipulate my immediate material environment right before my eyes...that was a trip. I've had a spirit inhabit my body and write poetry through me. I've also had other physical manifestations/symptoms of interactions with the spiritual realm. I have to say that recently, I seemed to have hit the spiritual motherload. The whole ride has just been mind blowing....amazing.

 

[water]

There are many fundies here, and also many atheists. But how can the religious people claim all of this knowledge of our creator? And how can the athiests claim to know beyond doubt that there is no 'God'?

Isn't it healthier to simply say "I don't know"?

There is a lot of ignorance on this subject on both sides, and maybe sitting in the middle of it all is the best step forward to perhaps actually getting answers?

Insisting in agnosticism is like not putting your messy room in order. Because you can't decide where to put what, so you just leave everything as it is.

In a messy room, you can't do anything, and similarly, agnosticism only gets you a step further to a meaningless old age, not to finding answers.

 

[Sarkus]

And how can the athiests claim to know beyond doubt that there is no 'God'?

Another case of mistaken understanding of Atheism.

Atheism is not necessarily the belief in the non-existence of God.
Atheism is merely not having a belief that God exists.

Some atheists will actively claim that God doesn't exist, but since you can't prove non-existence they will have as much difficulty supporting their statement as those who believe in a God.

The rest of us atheists say that we merely do not have a belief in God, generally because such a belief is unrequired for us to live our life, is irrational and as valid a belief as an infinite other beliefs such as Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny, an invisible pink monkey that lives on everyone's shoulders etc.

If you misunderstand what atheists are then you will be inaccurate in any analysis of them.

 

[Light Travelling]

Another case of mistaken understanding of Atheism.

Atheism is not necessarily the belief in the non-existence of God.
Atheism is merely not having a belief that God exists.

Some atheists will actively claim that God doesn't exist, but since you can't prove non-existence they will have as much difficulty supporting their statement as those who believe in a God.

The rest of us atheists say that we merely do not have a belief in God, generally because such a belief is unrequired for us to live our life, is irrational and as valid a belief as an infinite other beliefs such as Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny, an invisible pink monkey that lives on everyone's shoulders etc.

If you misunderstand what atheists are then you will be inaccurate in any analysis of them.

The harrap english dictionary would beg to differ with you on this, and defines atheist as "a person who believes that God does not exist".

If we all have different meanings for the same word, language becomes useless. The dictionary is here so that we have common meanings for words and can communicate effectively.

I suggest you are at odds with the rest of the english speaking world with your definition of atheist.

Why not just come out and say your an agnostic and be proud of it.

 

[lezardo]

I agree with KennyJC. Agnosticism is the only position from which one can pursue answers in an unbiased manner.

Religion and (strong) atheism only have a pychological benefit for those who believe in them, while closing their minds to other options.

I have no problem with weak atheists and a lot of open-minded religous people who I happen to know. But fundamentalists from both sides make me sick to my stomach, seeing as there exists no absolute proof for either position. (Although, some religious people claim to have experienced personal proof.)

I would currently describe myself as an agnostic in search of answers. I'll probably end up more or less following some religious direction, or maybe atheism, but I'm quite sure that I won't be 100% rigid in my beliefs. My own sense of reason forbids from it.

 

[Light Travelling]

It is true, when we have a rigid mind we prohibit further learning, and we are all learning all the way through our lives (or should be).

 

[fahrenheit 451]

I suggest you are at odds with the rest of the english speaking world with your definition of atheist.

ah but he's not, you are, you only have to search the web for the meaning there are many sites (atheism, encyclopedias, dictionarys etc)

Atheism


Atheism is traditionally defined as disbelief in the existence of God. As such, atheism involves active rejection of belief in the existence of God. Skeptics Dictionaryhttp://skepdic.com/atheism.html

Atheism is also not a religion or a complete ethical system. It has two main definitions:
bullet The lack of a belief that deity, in the form of one or more supernatural gods or goddesses, exists. American Atheists define an Atheist to be a person who "...does not believe in a god or gods, or other supernatural entities." 1
bullet The Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia define Atheism as "The denial of the existence of God or gods." Religious Tolerance
http://www.religioustolerance.org/at_ag_hu.htm

Atheism is the condition of being without theistic beliefs, Epicureanism incorporated aspects of atheism, Atheism disappeared from any consideration among philosophers of the Greek and Roman traditions as Christianity began to have widespread influence. During the Age of Enlightenment, atheism re-emerged as an accusation against those who questioned the religious status quo, but by the late 18th century it had become the most common position among scientists, rationalists, and humanists (60.7 percent of U.S. general scientists and 93 percent of N.A.S. top scientists expressing disbelief or doubt,wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist

A person for whom the idea of god is senseless. Not to be confused with a person who hates god.
www.angelfire.com/pa/ebrownle2/gloss.html

Denial of the existence of God. An atheist accepts only the material and physical world or what can be proven by reason.
essenes.net/odict.htm

 

[Sarkus]

The harrap english dictionary would beg to differ with you on this, and defines atheist as "a person who believes that God does not exist".

If we all have different meanings for the same word, language becomes useless. The dictionary is here so that we have common meanings for words and can communicate effectively.

I suggest you are at odds with the rest of the english speaking world with your definition of atheist.

Why not just come out and say your an agnostic and be proud of it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist
http://www.onelook.com/?other=web1913&w=Atheist

More importantly - our own Sciforums FAQ for the Religion sub-forum:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=26679
which states....
"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods."
It goes beyond that to explain Weak and Strong atheists - but they are both subsets of Atheism - the non-belief in the existence of a deity.

While I do not doubt some dictionaries will differ in their definitions (and they do) - we have an agreed definition and understanding of Atheism in this forum. Either use it or don't - but don't criticise people for using that which the forum FAQ has defined for us.
If you feel that the given definition/understanding is wrong then raise it in another thread.

Etymologically speaking:
atheist 1571, from Fr. athéiste (16c.), from Gk. atheos "to deny the gods, godless," from a- "without" + theos "a god" (see Thea). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (c.1534) which is perhaps from It. atheo "atheist."

Okay - moving on - The Oxford English Dictionary:
"Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition
Here is how the OED defines atheism:

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.

deny

To contradict or gainsay (anything stated or alleged); to declare to be untrue or untenable, or not what it is stated to be.
Logic. The opposite of affirm; to assert the contradictory of (a proposition).
To refuse to admit the truth of (a doctrine or tenet); to reject as untrue or unfounded; the opposite of assert or maintain.
To refuse to recognize or acknowledge (a person or thing) as having a certain character or certain claims; to disown, disavow, repudiate, renounce.
Note that the OED definition covers the whole spectrum of atheist belief, from weak atheism (those who do not believe in or credit the existence of one or more gods) to strong atheism (those who assert the contrary position, that a god does not exist).

Here is the OED's definition of 'agnostic':

agnostic A. sb. One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing."

Websters:
"Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary Unabridged
Here is Webster's definition of atheism:

atheism n 1 a: disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b: the doctrine that there is neither god nor any other deity--compare AGNOSTICISM 2: godlessness esp. in conduct

disbelief n: the act of disbelieving : mental refusal to accept (as a statement or proposition) as true

disbelieve vb vt : to hold not to be true or real : reject or withold belief in vi : to withold or reject belief"

Note that again, both strong (1b) and weak (1a) atheism are included in the definition.

So - in conclusion - either update your understanding of Atheism, or state "Strong" atheism when you mean those that actively disbelieve in God, so as to differentiate from those that aren't.

 

[Light Travelling]

Can I define a deist as somone who believes in a god in some form or other?
and if so,
can I also define a deist as not having the belief that god does not exist?

 

[Dreamwalker]

There are many fundies here, and also many atheists. But how can the religious people claim all of this knowledge of our creator? And how can the athiests claim to know beyond doubt that there is no 'God'?

Isn't it healthier to simply say "I don't know"?

There is a lot of ignorance on this subject on both sides, and maybe sitting in the middle of it all is the best step forward to perhaps actually getting answers?

I, as an atheist, never claimed knowledge about the existance, or lack thereof, of god, I only voiced doubts and believe. I do not believe in a god does not mean that I have knowledge of the nonexistance of god.

Knowledge and believe do not depend on one another.

 

[Light Travelling]

I
Knowledge and believe do not depend on one another.

Ah yes, but most atheists (I am not saying you are most atheists) would not allow a deist that freedom. They would demand a deist proove that god exists.

"Knowledge and believe do not depend on one another"
Remember this line next time you debate with a deist.

I am a deist but my concept of God is very loose and and undefined and doesnt completely fit with any major religion. But I am usually categorised as being part of one religion or another as soon as I mention God.

So we are all grouped and miscategorised from time to time. If we really want to be exact everyone on this planet has slightly different views and differing levels of belief / disbelief.

 

[Sarkus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a deist is someone who reaches the conclusion of God through reasoning, as opposed to a "theist" who reaches the conclusion of God through revelation / theology etc?

 

[Light Travelling]

My personal journey is one of reasoning.

A summarised version;
I cannot accept we are matter that lives through chemical reaction alone.
I find myself with no morals there - I cannot find specialness in life.
I cannot accept that all life is seperate and contained within matter.
I therefore believe there is a greater part to humanity, such as - soul / spirit / higher conscienceness / global conscienceness.
This then leads me to the possibility that if we have spirit then there may be other spiritual entities in existence.
And this leads me to the possibilty some form of god exists.

 

[phlogistician]

Sarkus, thanks for such good work showing the definition and abuse of the term 'atheist'. I think many forget that it implies a lack of belief in all gods, not just theirs! Therefore, everybody is an atheist, unless they also believe in Pan, Loki, Ganesh, Shiva, Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Jupiter etc etc.

I dislike the term 'strong atheist' though. I would prefer 'antitheist' or something, as this slip sliding implies more than there is to atheism.

I therefore also think the term 'agnostic' is pointless too. People either believe, or not. Nobody _knows_ that god exists, those that do believe have _faith_, not _proof_ or _knowledge_. Therefore, strictly everybody is an agnostic (and therefore the term fails to differentiate sides in any debate) or the term is merely used for people who don't know their own mind.

So, this last point in mind, agnosticism is far from being wise.

 

[water]

Ah. Atheists do not so much lack belief in God, as much as they hate and fear the idea that there should be one.

 

[lezardo]

I follow your reasoning, Light Travelling. While I feel pretty much the same way, I'm just not sure that my feelings are justification for a belief in a higher power.

Then again, I don't think one could write off all of the "supernatural" experiences claimed by people over the centuries as lies, hallucinations or some misunderstood natural occurrences. But then again, maybe one could!

At any rate, deism is something I plan to take a closer look at, sounds interesting.

 

[Light Travelling]

ah but he's not, you are, you only have to search the web for the meaning there are many sites (atheism, encyclopedias, dictionarys etc)

Actually I am not because I did not give you my opinion. All I did was quote a dictionary definition, so I think what you want to say is the dictionary is at odds.

Search the web for the meaning - Are you suggesting the web is now the definitive source of all knowledge - the web come on, there is all sorts of weird shit on the web, I could come out with all sorts of different definitions if I look hard enough.