Abortion?

[Lemming3k]

What is the world comming to, its fine to kill a plant or a spider but kill an undeveloped baby and everybody is appalled.
After receiving an email with graphic pictures of aborted foetus's, i just wondered what peoples thoughts are on the fact an undeveloped baby's 'life' is worth more than anything elses life.

 

[sargentlard]

It isn't. Technically that life is just as precious as that spider those do gooders will so easily kill. The problem is humanities view of humanity itself...we seem to find ourselves higher on life's chain, something beyond animals. So if models can walk down runways with $2000 crocodile boots then don't compalin when a young woman chooses not to ruin her life with an unexpected preganacy.

 

[whitewolf]

My opinion on spiders, flies, roaches, etc: If you didn't give it life, you have no right to take it, unless in self-defence (threats do not include non-poisonous/non-deadly biting). Same for abortion, but other factors come up.

 

[laughing weasel]

I believe that every human being has certain rights one of these is the right to life. I do not believe that animals have the same rights that people do. I fear that abortion is just one step in the dehumanization of everyone. Fifty years ago, no one would have considered abortion a child just because it was not wanted. Where is the cut off? autistics is doesn't show up until later and they really don't have productive lives their parents should be allowed to control their own lives. What about other handicaps? Where do you draw the line? Science is able to save earlier and earlier premature children at some point the line between a child that could be saved and killed will be crossed. Then the ethics of the situation really get messed up who is qualified to tell choose whose life is valueless.

 

[Lemming3k]

So if models can walk down runways with $2000 crocodile boots then don't compalin when a young woman chooses not to ruin her life with an unexpected preganacy.

Actually i think you may have misinterpreted me, im pro choice, and sick of people claiming its bad whilst they happily kill bugs infront of me.

I do not believe that animals have the same rights that people do.

This is the opinion i dont like, its ok to kill animals but not an unborn child because its human, apart from that its not technically living as without the mum it would die, its dependant on someone and that isnt much of a life, also some abortions are needed as some people arnt ready for a child and its unwanted because its an accident.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

My wife saw this thread on the screen, scrolled all the way up and down looking at the handles, and said, "Yup, a bunch of men pontificating about abortion again. I'll start giving a rat's ass what you S.O.B.s think about it just as soon as one of you gets pregnant."

 

[laughing weasel]

Sooooo, it would be ok to kill Christopher reeves because he can not live on his own? You kill thousands of bacteria with every breath that you take does this mean that you oppose breathing? I believe that hurting animals is bad. I do not believe that it is any where near as bad as harming a human. If nothing else harming a human is a betrayal of ones species.

 

[fireguy_31]

Hear here Fraggle. I recall a thread similar to this some time ago, and I recall a similar response you provided then equal to now - and I agree with you again.

This thread demonstrates our patriarchal society more than anything.

 

[okinrus]

This thread demonstrates our patriarchal society more than anything.

Why are you assuming that women cannot choose to be pro-life? Considering both sexes are killed in abortion, I don't see why men should not care.

It isn't. Technically that life is just as precious as that spider those do gooders will so easily kill. The problem is humanities view of humanity itself...we seem to find ourselves higher on life's chain, something beyond animals. So if models can walk down runways with $2000 crocodile boots then don't compalin when a young woman chooses not to ruin her life with an unexpected preganacy.

From a purely socialogical and selfish view, it depends on how much you value your own life. If you wish to be treated like a spider, it's your own perogative. But besides you having a greater experience of life, I don't see the difference between you and a fetus. By commiting these types of crimes, the people's perception of the value of human life will go downn, contributing to further degradation.

As mentioned by laugher, killing those who are handicaped, like the Nazi's did, is able to gain the society more money that would otherwise been wasted on their care and since these they then won't able to reproduce, better offspring.

But our society chooses to waste money on them because success is neither monetary nor health. It's compassion.

 

[fireguy_31]

okinrus

Why are you assuming that women cannot choose to be pro-life? Considering both sexes are killed in abortion, I don't see why men should not care.

I understand why my post might have given this (the first of your assertions) impression - an impression not indicative of my belief.

I believe women have the right to choose birth or no birth, without influence from our patriarchal political/social/religious environment(I live in N.America).

Furthermore, I also believe a mans' position on abortion should only be taken seriously when the human race is at jeapordy - which it's not. (please do not construe this position as a 'womans decision only' - the abortion debate stems from the out-of-the-ordinary circumstance)

 

[okinrus]

I believe women have the right to choose birth or no birth, without influence from our patriarchal political/social/religious environment(I live in N.America).

I'm uncertain how you are classifying pro-life to be influenced by patriarchal society. In most cases, as long as it is not an agrarian society, it is the men who would benefit monetarily from less children because it means less money is spent on child care.

Furthermore, I also believe a mans' position on abortion should only be taken seriously when the human race is at jeapordy - which it's not. (please do not construe this position as a 'womans decision only' - the abortion debate stems from the out-of-the-ordinary circumstance)

Should a man's position on a women killing their newborn child also be taken seriously? By ruling out the men's decision on this, you are effectivly admitting the fetus is not a human being. Conversely, if the fetus is a human being, then all of society should have a stake on his future. Bottom line, I think, is you are deciding abortion is right by passivly allowing the decision to be made by women only.

 

[sargentlard]

Actually i think you may have misinterpreted me, im pro choice, and sick of people claiming its bad whilst they happily kill bugs infront of me.

It was my bad choice of words...I knew what your intial intent was.

My wife saw this thread on the screen, scrolled all the way up and down looking at the handles, and said, "Yup, a bunch of men pontificating about abortion again. I'll start giving a rat's ass what you S.O.B.s think about it just as soon as one of you gets pregnant.

After looking at the handles did she actually read what we posted before lambasting our "man" responses?

Sooooo, it would be ok to kill Christopher reeves because he can not live on his own? You kill thousands of bacteria with every breath that you take does this mean that you oppose breathing? I believe that hurting animals is bad. I do not believe that it is any where near as bad as harming a human. If nothing else harming a human is a betrayal of ones species.

Quick: A stranger is holding a gun to your daughters head, about to shoot. You have a loaded gun and an oppertunity to shoot him...do you?....would you betray your species then?

A fetus has no emotion, no life, no heartbeat, no concious, no thoughts, no use...only potential, now tell me how much potential do human beings waste everyday? To me a fetus isn't human yet....it is an open window to change the future from being a captive cell of uneeded responsibility and forced maturity. A crippled person is a living, breathing human being, still independant to a great degree and still a contributing member to society, a fetus is, at it's best, a parasite at it's stage....huge difference between the two.


EDIT- Upon further thought this thread really seems ludacris in its acitivity...why? because this issue simply boils down what your definition of life is. There is really no right or wrong answer but an opinion stemming from ones values and beliefs. To what extent is one willing to protect life and to what extent is one willing to waste it. The back and forth responses can be forthcoming all day but to what use really? For some freedom is more viable than preservation of societies values and preservation of life and for others vice versa...so in the end isn't it the mother-to-be's choice rather than ours....she has to bare the weight of it all and the guilt or hapiness of it all, no man can ever or should ever have to make that choice for her.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Women bear about 99 percent of the pain, inconvenience, work, and other responsibility and impact of pregnancy, childbirth, and childrearing. It was that way in the Stone Age and judging by what I see and hear it's still pretty much that way for the majority of women in our supposedly advanced society.

At our best, we come along at our convenience and teach the boys to hunt, camp, fight, play football, drive cars, drink beer, and chase some other sucker's daughters, and we occasionally show up in girls' lives too but we don't really know what to do with them. At our worst we sometimes remember to send an alimony check if we got paid that month and maybe to visit on their birthdays.

(To be fair I know about one guy who isn't like that, the "one-percenter.")

I don't think that's enough to entitle us to have an opinion.

My opinion is modest and purely rhetorical: I wish people would stop screwing around with euphemisms and have the guts to call themselves and each other "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion." The so-called "pro-life" crowd doesn't give a damn about the health, security, prosperity, or happiness of the fetus's life once it is born, and the so-called "pro-choice" crowd wishes that any woman harboring the slightest doubt could be convinced to choose abortion.

 

[sargentlard]

At our best, we come along at our convenience and teach the boys to hunt, camp, fight, play football, drive cars, drink beer, and chase some other sucker's daughters, and we occasionally show up in girls' lives too but we don't really know what to do with them. At our worst we sometimes remember to send an alimony check if we got paid that month and maybe to visit on their birthdays.

You not knowing enough legitimate men who are great fathers isn't not our cross to bare. I know many men like that. For a good deal of us a child's birth is almost as intense and wonderful as it is for the mother (sans the blinding pain of the actual birth ofcourse)

My opinion is modest and purely rhetorical: I wish people would stop screwing around with euphemisms and have the guts to call themselves and each other "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion." The so-called "pro-life" crowd doesn't give a damn about the health, security, prosperity, or happiness of the fetus's life once it is born, and the so-called "pro-choice" crowd wishes that any woman harboring the slightest doubt could be convinced to choose abortion.

The abuse is the the main concern to me. Abortion, to me, should be a LAST option, not the first because she or he doesn't like the feel of condoms so freebasing it because abortion is there is a horrendous thought. So far, to my knowledge, this doesn't happen because there exist more than one ways to prevent this in the first place but I do agree that "pro-life" fanatics can and will try to force abortion as an only option for a scared, young girl who just needs guidance.

 

[okinrus]

A fetus has no emotion, no life, no heartbeat, no concious, no thoughts, no use...only potential, now tell me how much potential do human beings waste everyday?

Fetusus are living by a scientific definition and do have heartbeats after some number of weaks. I would think also that fetus' have emotions and thoughts as soon as their brain develops.

To me a fetus isn't human yet

The scientific definition is that a fetus is a member of the human species.

A crippled person is a living, breathing human being, still independant to a great degree and still a contributing member to society, a fetus is, at it's best, a parasite at it's stage....huge difference between the two.

Are we supposed to speculate on the fetusus net possible gain to society over time or not? I suspect that a fetus over a period of ten years has much more to offer than a crippled person who cannot move. Further, the cost to keep alive the cripple person may be in the millions of dollars, far more than a fetus.

There is really no right or wrong answer but an opinion stemming from ones values and beliefs. 
[/quote]
This is arguable.  Surely there's a right answer, given that we could see the entire result of any decision.  I'm sure, then, we could agree which one is right, basing it upon scales such as higher crime rates, future wars, economic productivity, etc.

[quote]
To what extent is one willing to protect life and to what extent is one willing to waste it. The back and forth responses can be forthcoming all day but to what use really? 
[/quote]
I would think its best to even waste billions of dollars then destroying life.  If we don't, then we making a statement that our young are not priceless, that money is more important.  I'm afraid this already starting to occur, however.

[quote]
For some freedom is more viable than preservation of societies values and preservation of life and for others vice versa...so in the end isn't it the mother-to-be's choice rather than ours....she has to bare the weight of it all and the guilt or hapiness of it all, no man can ever or should ever have to make that choice for her. 
[/quote]
If we assume it is the mothers choice, then when does the mothers stop?  I think this sort of killing destroys maternal love, which is necessary for human society.  By destroying the love that a mother has for a child, abortion could have a large effect on peoples perception of life.

 

[Lemming3k]

Upon further thought this thread really seems ludacris in its acitivity...why? because this issue simply boils down what your definition of life is. There is really no right or wrong answer but an opinion stemming from ones values and beliefs. To what extent is one willing to protect life and to what extent is one willing to waste it.

I just wanted peoples views, im curious, thats all, i guess there isnt any other purpose to this thread but to serve my curiousity.
Something else i wish to discuss is peoples opinions on why a man should/shouldnt have a say about abortion, i believe he should have input but ultimately its the womans choice, and if she chooses to keep it without the man agreeing the man shouldnt have rights or responibility for the child he didnt want.

 

[leda]

Question: If someone forced you to change your life in a major and irrevocable way, would this be a crime?
Unwanted pregnancies have this effect.
Abortion, even if we accept the fetus as a living entity is more like self defence than murder, killing a woman's chosen future.
This is why it's primarily about what women think - it is their chosen life that is being placed in jeopardy.

 

[fireguy_31]

I'm bowing out - not giving in - to this rediculous debate.

EDIT: ledas' post, in my opinion, is most logical - get out of the weeds people and examine the entire picture.

 

[laughing weasel]

There is a real case in Texas about a husband and a wife who were having an artificial pregnancy they had several fertilized eggs. They got a divorce. The woman is trying to get custody of the eggs. The husband no longer wishes to have children with her. He is trying to get the eggs to have them destroyed. If it is not her body why should she be allowed to force him to have children? Remember that you cannot sign away the children’s right to parental support that is not fair to the child. I am pro-life. I do not think the eggs should be destroyed but that comes only from my belief in life. You can not take away a sentient life without that beings permission.

 

[Lemming3k]

Thats an interesting case, i suppose since im pro choice i have the opposite view, having a child without the father wanting it will only cause problems, if he wishes to sign away his rights and responsibilities i'd consider it fair, and the women should understand she's on her own if she wants this kid, i can understand why she would want kids, i just feel she has no place to say he must father her child when he has no interest in it. Having a child is about 2 people wanting to have a family, not about 'im having your kid no matter what you want so you pay me benefits and look after it too', i suppose i may have a strange view but it just doesnt seem ethical.