A Unified Theory and the Debate of Consciousness

gluon

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Ben, please give this discussion a chance/ For it would be interesting to see each, and everyones view on the topic.

To this day, many scientists are now questioning the role of the observer in reference to space and time. Even scientists who do not dedicate a lifes work to the study of cojency are questioning whether if we leave some description of the observer from physics will result in an incomplete unified theory of everything.

The question today, to both Ben, and other site-users, is..

''do you believe that neglecting a description of the observer when relativistic effects are in place (1) where distance, time and measurement are a prerequisite to our order of a non-absolute time reference where high speeds are taken into account, would inexorably lead to an incomplete description of reality at large?''

(1) - reletivity is brought to light here, because special relativity is a completely observer-dependant theory.

*Ben, could you start this as a poll. I am not sure how to.
 
Weyl, H., 1952, Space Time Matter, Translated by H.L. Brose,
Dover Publ., Inc. New York.

Weyl (1952 p.7)
To be able to apply mathematical conceptions to questions of Time we must postulate that it is theoretically possible to fix in Time, to any order of accuracy, an absolutely rigorous now (present) as a point of Time—i.e. to be able to indicate points of time, one of which will always be the earlier and the other the later. The following principle will hold for this “order-relation”.

And since we know of the psychological arrow of time; see Hawkings' book, ''A Brief History of Time,'' should we see linear time as being a discription of the observer alone?

''
Now let us turn to consciousness. According to standard materialistic doctrine, consciousness, like space-time before the invention of general relativity, plays a secondary, subservient role, being considered just a function of matter and a tool for the description of the truly existing material world. But let us remember that our knowledge of the world begins not with matter but with perceptions. I know for sure that my pain exists, my “green” exists, and my “sweet” exists. I do not need any proof of their existence, because these events are a part of me; everything else is a theory. Later we find out that our perceptions obey some laws, which can be most conveniently formulated if we assume that there is some underlying reality beyond our perceptions. This model of material world obeying laws of physics is so successful that soon we forget about our starting point and say that matter is the only reality, and perceptions are only helpful for its description. This assumption is almost as natural (and maybe as false) as our previous assumption that space is only a mathematical tool for the description of matter. But in fact we are substituting reality of our feelings by a successfully working theory of an independently existing material world. And the theory is so successful that we almost never think about its limitations until we must address some really deep issues, which do not fit into our model of reality.


It is certainly possible that nothing similar to the modification and generalization of the concept of space-time will occur with the concept of consciousness in the coming decades. But the thrust of research in quantum cosmology has taught us that the mere statement of a problem which might at first glance seem entirely metaphysical can sometimes, upon further reflection, take on real meaning and become highly significant for the further development of science. We would like to take a certain risk and formulate several questions to which we do not yet have the answers.

Is it not possible that consciousness, like space-time, has its own intrinsic degrees of freedom, and that neglecting these will lead to a description of the universe that is fundamentally incomplete? What if our perceptions are as real (or maybe, in a certain sense, are even more real) than material objects? What if my red, my blue, my pain, are really existing objects, not merely reflections of the really existing material world? Is it possible to introduce a “space of elements of consciousness,” and investigate a possibility that consciousness may exist by itself, even in the absence of matter, just like gravitational waves, excitations of space, may exist in the absence of protons and electrons? Will it not turn out, with the further development of science, that the study of the universe and the study of consciousness will be inseparably linked, and that ultimate progress in the one will be impossible without progress in the other? After the development of a unified geometrical description of the weak, strong, electromagnetic, and gravitational interactions, will the next important step not be the development of a unified approach to our entire world, including the world of consciousness?

All of these questions might seem somewhat naive, but it becomes increasingly difficult to investigate quantum cosmology without making an attempt to answer them. Few years ago it seemed equally naive to ask why there are so many different things in the universe, why nobody has ever seen parallel lines intersect, why the universe is almost homogeneous and looks approximately the same at different locations, why space-time is four-dimensional, and so on. Now, when inflationary cosmology provided a possible answer to these questions, one can only be surprised that prior to the 1980's, it was sometimes taken to be bad form even to discuss them.

It would probably be best then not to repeat old mistakes, but instead to forthrightly acknowledge that the problem of consciousness and the related problem of human life and death are not only unsolved, but at a fundamental level they are virtually completely unexamined. It is tempting to seek connections and analogies of some kind, even if they are shallow and superficial ones at first, in studying one more great problem - that of the birth, life, and death of the universe. It may conceivably become clear at some future time that these two problems are not so disparate as they might seem.''

This doctor certainly thinks that consciousness requires spacetime description... probably these two mentioned are a breath of fresh air from my usual citations of Dr Wolf.
 
Reiku:

1.) I don't know what the poll options are.
2.) I don't see a lot of science here.
3.) Just because you're not citing Dr. Wolf doesn't suddenly make this acceptable.

We'll see how this goes...I'm not optimistic.
 
. . . .could you start this as a poll. . . . .
What kind of poll are you looking for? There are only a handful of SciForums members (if that many) with the education and expertise to have an actual professional opinion on something so arcane that would be worthy of taking seriously. What the rest of us relatively ignorant souls think about it couldn't possibly matter.
 
1) - reletivity is brought to light here, because special relativity is a completely observer-dependant theory.
An observer in relativity is just a marker for a reference frame. They're used a lot in teaching relativity because the idea of an observer is easier for students to handle... but the theory doesn't depend on observers. The idea of an observer is just a useful teaching tool.
 
Reiku:

1.) I don't know what the poll options are.
2.) I don't see a lot of science here.
3.) Just because you're not citing Dr. Wolf doesn't suddenly make this acceptable.

We'll see how this goes...I'm not optimistic.

The poll options should be;

1) Do you think explaining the conscious frame of reference is part of a unified theory?
2) Or do you believe a totally physical explaination of physics is enough?


The science will unravel as everyones interesting questions have passed my eyes. So far, pete has had something quite ineteresting to say.
 
An observer in relativity is just a marker for a reference frame. They're used a lot in teaching relativity because the idea of an observer is easier for students to handle... but the theory doesn't depend on observers. The idea of an observer is just a useful teaching tool.


Well this is an interesting reply to what i said, because it turns out if one studies the basics behind relativity, learns that distance and speed turn out to be what we come to measure as a truth and thus, relativistic effects are taken into account. Without the observer, we wouldn't be able to make any such postulates from a special viewpoint.
 
Well this is an interesting reply to what i said, because it turns out if one studies the basics behind relativity, learns that distance and speed turn out to be what we come to measure as a truth and thus, relativistic effects are taken into account. Without the observer, we wouldn't be able to make any such postulates from a special viewpoint.
That looks like it makes sense, gluon... but when I try to follow your meaning, it turns out to be not meaningful at all. What is the "special viewpoint" you mention?

I stand by what I said before... an observer is just a marker for a reference frame. A useful but unnecessary tool.
 
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