A simple question for Christians

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Provita

Provita
Registered Senior Member
I hate making threads for I feel they are rather useless questions and wasting time, so sorry if I'm wasting your time...

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving... and considering He created everything:

1) Doesn't that mean he also created sin?

If so, doesn't that make him not all-loving. If not, proceed to question 2:

2) Didn't God create humans knowing they would create suffering, so isn't he knowingly creating people who will, in the future, be mass murderers, etc? If so, doesn't that make him Evil? If not, then he isn't all-knowing.

If it does not make him Evil, proceed to question 3:

3) God created Satan. There's no debating that really, God created everything, including the Angels. Satan is a fallen angel. So God created Satan knowing he would later betray him and then later on tempt humans thus creating sin and all the bad stuff today. How is that not God's fault, since he could have prevented ALL of that?

4) Why can't God make only people that he knows will make good decisions and not the evil people? Doesn't he have the power and responsibility to do so?

Saying the Devil is to blame is useless, because God created Satan knowing fully wel what Satan would do in the future, and God has the power (remember, all-powerful) to get rid of Satan right now. So why doesn't he? And why did he need to die on the cross to defeat Satan? Why couldn't he have just *poof* defeated him? And Technically, he didn't defeat him... for he is still here. Or there. Or whatever.
 
You may not want to go there LOL
Oh well... too late :p

God is like a mean kid, burning ants with a magnifying glass.
Or (and this makes much more sense),
God doesnt exist.

Word of advice: Brace yourself... ;)
 
When my children were born, I was god to them. Everything they were and had was because of me. I took care of them and loved them. They needed me, wanted me, loved me.

And then that whole free will thing kicked in. I didn't make them disobedient. I didn't make them mean.


Anyways, perfect people are boring. How much fun would we be for god if we were Stepford humans.
 
Orleander said:
When my children were born, I was god to them. Everything they were and had was because of me. I took care of them and loved them. They needed me, wanted me, loved me.

And then that whole free will thing kicked in. I didn't make them disobedient. I didn't make them mean.

Anyways, perfect people are boring. How much fun would we be for god if we were Stepford humans.
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*************
M*W: Been there, done that, but for some unknown reason, we all lived through it.
 
Anyways, perfect people are boring. How much fun would we be for god if we were Stepford humans.
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Ah, we exist merely for gods personal entertainment? Can't he just create himself a playstation 3?
 
At first I thought I had a pretty good rebuttal for all your questions, but as I typed them, I kept getting caught up in further moral problems. For every excuse another problem arises from it. I really couldn't give a good answer without being hypocritical.

Let's say you believe in God, yet you find moral technicalites with him. Does that mean you have to not believe in God anymore, simply because your finite human mind can't comprehend something that large?

Or should God's actions be 100% understandable and accessable to us as humans?
 
1) Doesn't that mean he also created sin?

this answer should give you some new questions to ponder..

God is not the author of sin.. neither is "the devil".. sin is merely a shadow passing before the light of the unlimited..
 
Xpandngreal8y said:
1) Doesn't that mean he also created sin?

this answer should give you some new questions to ponder..

God is not the author of sin.. neither is "the devil".. sin is merely a shadow passing before the light of the unlimited..
Click to expand...

I disagree. Everything in our Universe had to've been created, all things known and unknown. If there were an aspect of our Universe that did not need to be created, sin, in your example, that means that it would be above the realm of God and therefore more powerful than God, which simply can't be.
 
mybreathyourlung said:
I disagree. Everything in our Universe had to've been created, all things known and unknown. If there were an aspect of our Universe that did not need to be created, sin, in your example, that means that it would be above the realm of God and therefore more powerful than God, which simply can't be.
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if you assume that the creation is perfect then my assertion holds.
 
if you assume that the creation is perfect
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Creation would not be 'percect' only because an apparently 'perfect' god decided it would be so. There simply is nobody and nothing else to blame for the state of the world.
 
LOL.. not us thats for certain !!! how absurd... who else could be blamed for the current state of the world ?? CERTAINLY NOT ITS INHABITANTS ??? LMAO, LETS BLAME GOD..

there is no right or wrong in God.. its only in us.. in our perception of reality.. in reality both sides are necessary for forward motion..
 
LOL.. not us thats for certain !!! how absurd... who else could be blamed for the current state of the world ?? CERTAINLY NOT ITS INHABITANTS ??? LMAO, LETS BLAME GOD..
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I made this bunch of robots, I programmed them in a specific way and wait.. eventually they took over and destroyed London - (it's recently been in the news). The robots are to blame.. right, not me who made them and programmed them?

You'll find when someone makes a product and that product is faulty, the blame lies with the manufacturer - but not to those that have shares in the company. They try and blame everyone else. This is no different.
 
Orleander said:
When my children were born, I was god to them. Everything they were and had was because of me. I took care of them and loved them. They needed me, wanted me, loved me.

And then that whole free will thing kicked in. I didn't make them disobedient. I didn't make them mean.
Click to expand...
The difference, of course, is that you didn't really create your children - you just provided the raw materials, and they were created by processes that you had absolutely no control over. If you had total control over reality and chose to make yourself kids that you knew with certainty would end up being disobedient and mean, then yeah, it would be your fault that they were disobedient and mean.
 
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Xpandngreal8y said:
pain is nescessary even in a perfect creation. without it there is no pleasure.
no sin = no virtue, no bad = no good..
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That’s ridiculous. Perhaps it’s necessary for pain or sin to exist as abstract philosophical/theoretical concepts in order for pleasure and goodness to exist, but that doesn’t mean that the world would actually have to be full of them. Using your reasoning, it’s necessary for dark to exist in order for light to exist. But I can turn on all the lamps in my house and illuminate everything brightly so that no darkness exists in my house. Of course the concept of darkness will exist, but that doesn’t mean that I have to keep all the lights in half of my house turned off in order for them to be turned on in the other half.
 
Nasor said:
That’s ridiculous. Perhaps it’s necessary for pain or sin to exist as abstract philosophical/theoretical concepts in order for pleasure and goodness to exist, but that doesn’t mean that the world would actually have to be full of them. Using your reasoning, it’s necessary for dark to exist in order for light to exist. But I can turn on all the lamps in my house and illuminate everything brightly so that no darkness exists in my house. Of course the concept of darkness will exist, but that doesn’t mean that I have to keep all the lights in half of my house turned off in order for them to be turned on in the other half.
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He is right you know. If you turn all the lights in your house in order to eliminate darkness, but your shadow will prove you wrong.

Lao Tzu had the logic covered:

Tao-Te-King CH 2 said:
If everybody in the world knows about the beautiful in its effect as beauty, then everybody knows about the ugly as well; if everybody knows about the good in its effect as goodness, then everybody knows about the evil as well.

Therefore: being and nothingness generate each other, heaviness and lightness complete each other. Length and shortness mould each other, height and depth lean towards each other. Sound and voice harmonize each other, before and after follow each other!
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Provita said:
I hate making threads for I feel they are rather useless questions and wasting time, so sorry if I'm wasting your time...

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving... and considering He created everything:

1) Doesn't that mean he also created sin?

If so, doesn't that make him not all-loving. If not, proceed to question 2:

2) Didn't God create humans knowing they would create suffering, so isn't he knowingly creating people who will, in the future, be mass murderers, etc? If so, doesn't that make him Evil? If not, then he isn't all-knowing.

If it does not make him Evil, proceed to question 3:

3) God created Satan. There's no debating that really, God created everything, including the Angels. Satan is a fallen angel. So God created Satan knowing he would later betray him and then later on tempt humans thus creating sin and all the bad stuff today. How is that not God's fault, since he could have prevented ALL of that?

4) Why can't God make only people that he knows will make good decisions and not the evil people? Doesn't he have the power and responsibility to do so?

Saying the Devil is to blame is useless, because God created Satan knowing fully wel what Satan would do in the future, and God has the power (remember, all-powerful) to get rid of Satan right now. So why doesn't he? And why did he need to die on the cross to defeat Satan? Why couldn't he have just *poof* defeated him? And Technically, he didn't defeat him... for he is still here. Or there. Or whatever.
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Ah a nice chance for me to flex my theist muscle. One must retain a good understanding of the opposing side, no? So here are some imaginary answers by a thoughtful theist:

1) Yes, God would have created sin but this does not mean that he is automatically non-loving. Love must have an antithesis in order to mean anything (much like light requires dark or faith requires doubt), so while the introduction of it into "his" world may be ground for raising some questions concerning his benevolence, it is not enough to completely strip "him" of it, as the ultimate reasons for it are obviously beyond human sight.

2) Yes, he would have to have known these things. But this makes the assumption that God allows no free will, which is in itself a tricky subject. God does not and cannot work in this way, his will is not always realized by his creation--like in the case of a mass murderer--but that does not mean he is still not in control. It'd be much like a referee in a game; the players are given a context to work in but the ref ultimately still has a full grasp on the situation. This assumption also discounts the possibility of hindsight in our worthy Creator; it is a fact that requires no explanation that seemingly bad events can be crafted into something that is far greater in culmination, given time.

3) Once again, it is God's fault. Satan is widely misunderstood mostly by those who claim to be warring against him; the name Lucifer for instance was never intended to describe Satan's "fall from heaven", which is never mentioned obviously in the Bible, but instead in subsequent man-made addendums (Paradise Lost if I remember correctly). This is a passage stolen from an easily accessed website from Google-ing Lucifer:

"In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word "helel," which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the "morning star" or "star of the morning" or "bright star" which is presented in Isaiah. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’" (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV)."

This description of Lucifer hardly seems to insinuate an evil incarnate devil. Many theologians are quick to interpret this as a referral to the Devil (which they do only based on playing theological connect-the-dots in attempt to explain who this passage is being addressed to). In actual scriptural context, this admonishment is directed not at the Devil, who would need no admonishment for he is unable to repent or be blamed for the way he has been made, but to Adam; the son of the dawn of Creation. This is merely a recitation of his eating of the forbidden tree, and it makes much more sense in this light. For a more exhausting dissertation, visit here: http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

So in essence, the devil is God's mad dog on a leash who cannot do but that which his master commands (read the opening chapters of Job carefully).

4) If he didn't do so, how would you be able to tell who the good ones are? And there is something to be said for the experience of good vs. evil. I'd liken it to a video game; what if the programmers decided for you just to win as soon as you turned it on. Would you want a game like that?

;)

::phew:: Twas fun.
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
He is right you know. If you turn all the lights in your house in order to eliminate darkness, but your shadow will prove you wrong.
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Not if I have lights on all sides of me :rolleyes:

Like I said, it's fine to say that it's necessary for sin/pain/whatever to exist as abstact concepts in order for good/pleasure/whatever to exist. If you can imagine a state (like being good, or feeling pleasure) then you can imagine the opposite of that state (sin, feeling pain). But that doesn't mean that you have to actually experience it, or that it ever has to actually be manifest in the real world.
 
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