A really hard question on Satan and deception.

[Greatest I am]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.
That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.
Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?
As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?
If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.
If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

Are morals the only good way around it?

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah’s day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?
Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

Regards
DL

 

[spidergoat]

Good point. This is the kind of logical inconsistency that you accept into your life when you start believing in things that have no evidence. Why not multiply assumptions indefinitely?

 

[Adstar]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.
That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

They do show themselves. When they are allowed to. An angels free will does not allow them to go do anything. Just like our free will does not allow us to jump up and land on the moon.

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

Mot sure if demons are evil angels. I don't see any scriptural support for that conclusion.

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

I guess an angel could do an impostor act. But why bother? most people think that angels are all good. That’s why we have a book of mormon and a quran today. Both where dictated by angels.

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

In the times just before the return of the messiah He will be allowed to deceive most of the population of the earth, that’s because God will remove the restrainer out of his way.

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

Well i agree most people are deceived. Most people have rejected the message of Jesus even when they say they believe in Him. So god gives them over to delusion. it's all revealed in the bible.

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?
As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

People will follow what their minds deem right. people who deem the truth right will be kept from deception and therefore saved. People who deem a false message to be right and who reject the true Message will be sitting ducks for deception.

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

If one believes in the true message of God then Yes one is secure. Because God can keep one from deception. No matter how deceiving it is for others.

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.

When satan does his false messiah deception through the lawless one there will be no atheists on earth, because he will do all the magic tricks the atheists have been demanding to see your generations.

If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

So if satan deceives there is no God??? If one believes that satan exists then why would not the same person believe God exists? They kind of go together.

And again if a believer is deceived then they believe is something wrong. God will guard the ones who accept His will.

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

Easy i trust in God to keep me from deception.

Are morals the only good way around it?

?

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah’s day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

Ahhh i see, you disagree with God carrying our mass execution. Here again you are making your judgement as to what is a proper thing for God to do and what is not good for God to do.

I accept God judges and the price of sin is death. That’s part of the Message. You don't believe it, you must believe something else.

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

Not really. It is only one small facet of the entire message. The majority disbelieve in turning the cheek and loving their enemies, they believe in the doctrine of justifiable War. See another facet where there is a different majority and another minority. Most atheists believe War is justified in self-defence so they agree with the majority of the religious in this case.

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?

It is an acceptable thing for God to do, but not an acceptable thing for His followers to do.

Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

Regards
DL

Not so. But a good try anyway.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Greatest I am]

Good point. This is the kind of logical inconsistency that you accept into your life when you start believing in things that have no evidence. Why not multiply assumptions indefinitely?

Thanks.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

They do show themselves. When they are allowed to. An angels free will does not allow them to go do anything. Just like our free will does not allow us to jump up and land on the moon.

You are contradicting yourself and using a human analogy while we do not have the miracle working power of angels.

You say angels have free will followed by they are not allowed.

Do they have free will or not?
Not allowed says that they do not.

Mot sure if demons are evil angels. I don't see any scriptural support for that conclusion.

Tradition says so.

I guess an angel could do an impostor act. But why bother? most people think that angels are all good. That’s why we have a book of mormon and a quran today. Both where dictated by angels.

Why bother? To win us over of course.

In the times just before the return of the messiah He will be allowed to deceive most of the population of the earth, that’s because God will remove the restrainer out of his way.

Does he have free will or not? If not, whose will is he doing if not God's?

Well i agree most people are deceived. Most people have rejected the message of Jesus even when they say they believe in Him. So god gives them over to delusion. it's all revealed in the bible.

Except that the Bible itself might be a tool that Satan uses. We would not be able to tell could we?
How?

People will follow what their minds deem right. people who deem the truth right will be kept from deception and therefore saved. People who deem a false message to be right and who reject the true Message will be sitting ducks for deception.

Unless what you call a true message is a deceptive one. How could you tell?

If one believes in the true message of God then Yes one is secure. Because God can keep one from deception. No matter how deceiving it is for others.

Yet scripture itself says that God will cause prophets to lie.
You are thinking quite simplistically my friend.

When satan does his false messiah deception through the lawless one there will be no atheists on earth, because he will do all the magic tricks the atheists have been demanding to see your generations.





So if satan deceives there is no God??? If one believes that satan exists then why would not the same person believe God exists? They kind of go together.

And again if a believer is deceived then they believe is something wrong. God will guard the ones who accept His will.





Easy i trust in God to keep me from deception.





?



Ahhh i see, you disagree with God carrying our mass execution. Here again you are making your judgement as to what is a proper thing for God to do and what is not good for God to do.

Why would you not want me to judge?
That is exactly what you are doing. Right?
Am I not allowed a level playing field?

I accept God judges and the price of sin is death. That’s part of the Message. You don't believe it, you must believe something else.

Of course.

Not really. It is only one small facet of the entire message. The majority disbelieve in turning the cheek and loving their enemies, they believe in the doctrine of justifiable War. See another facet where there is a different majority and another minority. Most atheists believe War is justified in self-defence so they agree with the majority of the religious in this case.

Does that mean that you do not believe in self defense?
Not even of your family and friends?

It is an acceptable thing for God to do, but not an acceptable thing for His followers to do.

Satan has deceived you there for sure.
As above so below.
We are told to emulate God and mimic him as much as possible.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Unless this scripture is part of the deception.
Is it?

Thanks for the reply but you are thinking rather simplistically and not being helpful so far.

You did seem to think that genocide was good justice.
How does this quote strike you?

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Genocide is never good unless God uses it. Is that what you are saying?
If so, what about as above so below and does that not justify man using genocide?

Regards
DL

 

[Enmos]

...

Wow.. :bugeye:

 

[Adstar]

Thanks for the reply but you are thinking rather simplistically and not being helpful so far.

You did seem to think that genocide was good justice.
How does this quote strike you?

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I got no problem with that scripture Romans 12: 21. Actually in context Paul is giving the same message that Jesus gave in His beattitudes speach:

Romans 12
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore
“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Often doing the above has a very powerful effect on ones enemies. It's hard to hate and want to abuse someone who loves you and is prepared to take your anger without retaliation. And Jesus did this when He was executed seeking for them to be forgiven and many of them did repent on the day of Pentecost for it. But... And sadly there is a But in this. If ones enemy does not react to your love and turning your cheek in a good manner, if they persist in hating and persecuting you to the extreme then they have rejected forgiveness. Same with Jesus and His gospel message, if one maintains their hatred and resistance to the end of their lives they will face eternal wrath. God is longsuffering towards us. Not eternally suffering towards us.

Genocide is never good unless God uses it. Is that what you are saying?

Genocide is never good unless God does it or Orders it. Yep that’s what i am saying.

If so, what about as above so below and does that not justify man using genocide?

Regards
DL

"as above so below" has nothing to do with Christianity, it is an occultic saying, and more to do with dualistic 2 god thinking. You know YAVEH is God and satan is a god too kind of thing. Not surprised you referred to it but you must have forgot you where talking with a Christian.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[kx000]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

You're being decieved, I tell you.

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.
That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

You don't know, you never will. I do, I keep the devil on the payroll, this you must surly believe, he will tell you true.

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

Have you ever cared to ask anyone if they are one?

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

there is only good and evil

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

There is a fairly good guidline on what to expect from God, actualy perfect.

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

Yes but so can I.

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

Yes but so have you and your people.

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?
As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

YES, YOU follow the wrong God, You are in league with the devil, ye ol serpent. I cast thee from these here forums

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

Yes, Satan tells me true, he can do nothing to a man like me. He who can not be decieved.

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.
If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

WINWINWINWINWINWINWINWIN

Are morals the only good way around it?

If you share my morals.

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah’s day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

They brought death unto themselves, just as these people do the day I leave, and when the Christ has come and gone, when things will be set right by he who no man see's. Satan will have to deal with the keeper of hell, he who keeps the black pit behind him. There is no way around it, faultfinder. These people were cast into the darkness.

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?
Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

Leaver here, you! Get out, they fall not for your rebellion. Cast ye self from here.

Seriously, if God were evil there would be no God. Well there would be, and that God would be Lucifer, but Lucifer betrayed God, so YES YHWH can be the deciever, and LuLu can be the God. But, thats just not how it works, and that I keep faith in.

Take my word, I ask you no coinage in return. I give you gold and all I tell ye is take to heart what is precious of my uneathly metal, as my word shines, and will hold true like nothing could possibly on earth.

 

[decons]

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

They have free will? This changes everything. I wish I knew that before the World War I.

 

[kx000]

They have free will? This changes everything. I wish I knew that before the World War I.

You think God forces us to follow his word? if you consider satan a god then thou as thou will. Every living thing has free will. Everythins IS PRE DETERMINED. The final outcome will happen. There is a end game. How we get there? Only the wise will know.

 

[kx000]

I could be decieving you right now, but use you good judgment.

 

[decons]

Every living thing has free will. Everythins IS PRE DETERMINED.

I see that free will is not in capital letters.

 

[kx000]

I see that free will is not in capital letters.

now it is. not yet, ill change it later this week, maybe, if I feel like it.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Every living thing has free will. Everythins IS PRE DETERMINED.

Mutually exclusive statements.

 

[kx000]

NO you are wrong

 

[Dywyddyr]

NO you are wrong

Explain.

 

[Greatest I am]

I got no problem with that scripture Romans 12: 21. Actually in context Paul is giving the same message that Jesus gave in His beattitudes speach:

Romans 12
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore
“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Often doing the above has a very powerful effect on ones enemies. It's hard to hate and want to abuse someone who loves you and is prepared to take your anger without retaliation. And Jesus did this when He was executed seeking for them to be forgiven and many of them did repent on the day of Pentecost for it. But... And sadly there is a But in this. If ones enemy does not react to your love and turning your cheek in a good manner, if they persist in hating and persecuting you to the extreme then they have rejected forgiveness. Same with Jesus and His gospel message, if one maintains their hatred and resistance to the end of their lives they will face eternal wrath. God is longsuffering towards us. Not eternally suffering towards us.



Genocide is never good unless God does it or Orders it. Yep that’s what i am saying.





"as above so below" has nothing to do with Christianity, it is an occultic saying, and more to do with dualistic 2 god thinking. You know YAVEH is God and satan is a god too kind of thing. Not surprised you referred to it but you must have forgot you where talking with a Christian.

s

I may have but your ignoring that quote on using evil and your immoral thinking on genocide cleared that up.

I happen to be working on something that you might want to opine on it.
It has some relevance here.

Found. The tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I will assume here that those who compiled the books of the Bible knew what they were doing, in terms of giving us a myth with a moral lesson.

God is said to be the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end. Bible God is to be at the top and bottom of any attribute we can think of for God. He is to be our example of the greatest love as well as the greatest hate.

The Bible tells us not to add or subtract from it and to use it as it’s own judge. If we are to do so then we must judge what is in it as good or evil. FMPOV, the O T shows God’s evil side and the N T shows God’s good side. Most recognize this and this is why the emphasis is on following Jesus and not the barbaric God of the O T. IOW, the O T is the evil side of the tree of knowledge while the N T is the good side of the tree of knowledge.

Many that follow the Bible God recognize this. Literalists and fundamentals do not. They end up venerating the evil side of God, the O T, as well as the good side, Jesus and the N T, when they are supposed to be rejecting the God of evil in the O T.

Literalists and fundamentals can thus be seen as immature thinkers and true sheep. While Christians who recognize the evil in the God of the O T can be seen as better thinkers and able to discern good from evil, literalist can be seen as poor thinkers who cannot discern evil. They end up with a theology that embraces anything from genocide to infanticide as long as God is doing it. Arguably an immoral position.

This is how literalists and fundamentals all end up hurting their parent religions.

If, as I stated, that the O T of the Bible should be seen as the evil side of the tree of knowledge and God, then the tree of life should be near. I submit that it is also within the Bible but that it has nothing to do with eternal life. Nowhere in the Bible is the great lose of this tree of immortality bemoaned. Yet to many, it is the most important aspect of the Bible. I think we can trust scriptures, when they speak of a tree of life, and is only means a good life and not an eternal one.

Literalists and fundamentals thus end up having much work to do on their morals because they are hindered by the notion that they should be embracing and honoring an evil God.

In effect, from a biblical standpoint, they are the Anti-Christ, as they continue to venerate evil.

Who do you follow, the good God, or the evil God?

Reading the Bible as I do, and seeing it as containing the tree of knowledge and the tree of life, make this book all inclusive in and of itself and in that way, I am true to the authors and compilers who said not to add or subtract anything from it. It was meant to show a complete story and God and I think that reading it as I do is the only way to understand the full story.

Regards
DL

 

[Pineal]

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.
That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

That this question stumps you, ties this thread directly into Signal's issues raised,I think, in a couple of threads. This is also true for much of what you have written below.

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.
Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

At least on certain issues, absolutely. And not only that, it means that their leaders spoke with certainty about something they were in fact not correct about. One can loosen this somewhat by saying that different religions may serve different needs and perhaps stages - which it seems to me LG is implying elsewhere. But on this very issue, then, at least, these religions were not sufficiently humble since they were sure they were the right ones for everyone.

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?
As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Pineal]

Explain.

I agree with you, but I think it might go better if you explained how they were mutually exclusive, first. Just a guess about flow.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I agree with you, but I think it might go better if you explained how they were mutually exclusive, first. Just a guess about flow.

If everything is predetermined then our "choices", by definition, are already made. Therefore, since those choices are not actually choices, we don't have free will.