A Question of Justice - Mother charged in stillbirth

The decision to not have a Cesarean?

  • Despicable

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tragic

    Votes: 10 100.0%
  • Criminal

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All of the above

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
Utah woman charged in stillbirth

It sounds bizarre: a woman who refused a Cesarean section has been charged in a stillbirth.
Melissa Ann Rowland, 28, had refused medical treatment, saying she would rather die than go to either of the two recommended hospitals, and that being cut "from breast bone to pubic bone" would ruin her life, the county District Attorney's Office alleges in a probable-cause statement filed in 3rd District Court.

Rowland, also known as Melissa Hrosik, faces up to life in prison if convicted of the first-degree felony. Her attorney, Michael Sikora, said she has been in jail since shortly after giving birth in mid-January on a child endangerment charge involving the surviving twin, a girl who has been adopted.

Sikora, a public defender, said Rowland has a long history of mental illness and was first committed to a hospital at age 12.

What makes the prosecution's case extraordinary is it presumes the state can second-guess an expectant mother's choice on major medical care.

"This is nothing if not a very novel legal theory," Sikora said. "If it prevails, it raises questions about what a mother can or cannot do with respect to the safety of her unborn child. If a doctor says this will be a very difficult pregnancy and you should get complete bed rest for the last three months and the mother doesn't and the baby is stillborn, is she guilty of murder? If she smokes, is it murder? If she doesn't eat right, is it murder?"
(Manson)
I believe Sikora has pretty much summed up the question.

At the core is a very simple issue. At the core is also a very stupid and overly-complicated issue. The simple issue is one of ownership; in the abortion argument I hold that a woman owns her body and what takes place inside it. Regardless of how we judge Ms. Rowland's priorities, they are still her own, and frankly, I'm not surprised it's Utah. The stupid and overly-complicated issue is one of those "resorts for scoundrels." In the 1990s, for instance, when the Clinton administration infuriated Ken Starr by going after the nicotine-delivery industry, the campaign against smoking drove two oddly unstable prongs. First was questionable research by the EPA in support of what seems blatant. More vital to our issue today, however, was the expense society suffered as a result of smoking: higher insurance rates, lower workplace productivity ....

Well, let's think for a minute about the number of extraneous things people do that cost society in similar ways. Issues of scale can be argued, but I think they're irrelevant.

Let's start with me: I smoke tobacco, drink alcohol, eat bacon ... my entire diet is f@cked compared to normal people; new Atkins converts envy my diet. I live a high-stress life as a result of my partner specifically and unresolved issues on my part about how exactly one human being is supposed to relate to another under any given circumstances. Is a lack of couples' counseling an excuse for lowered productivity? For greater vice issues and resultant healthcare costs?

And that's before I hit the couch and start spelling it out.

If we pick on smokers for smoking, and Rep. Waxman has the audacity to claim that cigarettes are the #1 air polluter in L.A. County, what the hell is the excuse for all the non-carpooling SUV drivers around here? It took how long for justice to rise from an Indian mining disaster? What will we say to our corporate polluters? Will we charge them with murder?

There comes a point at which "personal accountability" is unpalatable, and as a side commentary, I think that's something the GOP-aligned moralists of the 1990s failed to understand. Whether it was Dan Quayle's "Brown Explosion" or the Oregon Citizens' Alliance bearing such a negative presence that the state GOP dissolved in order to save itself, people quite apparently and deliberately drew lines and said, "No, we are going to be human, and that means things get f@cked up every once in a while."

And while "personal accountability" was okay for cigarettes, it's unpalatable when people think of using organic food or driving fuel-efficient cars, or being humble enough to sit in front of a counselor and admit that the raving lunatic bitch sitting next to you has a point from time to time.

As Mr. Sikora suggests, this issue invokes "personal accountability" in a manner generally unpalatable ot most Americans.

Look, I have no polite words to describe someone whose vanity interferes with the best interests of twin children she chose to attempt to carry to term. My own partner has pointed out that in a pregnant, emotional state, such an opinion as Ms. Rowland is alleged to have expressed is not beyond comprehension.

(If anyone's done mushrooms with friends, you may have seen something similar. I once watched my girlfriend and my best friend politely and formally argue for over an hour about who got to hold what lighter. Really. Additionally, I might as well make use of this parenthetic space to note that in the case of my partner, her conditions for explaining Ms. Rowland's position, in part--that she thinks she said one thing while someone else thinks she said another--reflects more curiously on her. Saying different words than you intend to say and different words than you remember is a very curious and relevant suggestion in that high-stress standoff that is ... too much of my life.)

But whatever reasons, from the pathetic to the downright despicable, Ms. Rowland made her decision. And whether we look upon her sympathetically, dispassionately, or condemningly, we must remember that she is entitled to governance over her body and all that takes place therein.

I think of all the "innocent" ways people can be charged with murder if this prosecution wins its case. All else considered, this is still a dangerous precedent to set.
 
btw, why isn't there an option in the above poll for "personal choice" or something like that?
Honestly? It's such a given, to me, that it's not worth voting on. Rather, the question asks for reflection--okay, judgment--of that personal choice.

I suppose I could have phrased the question better, now that I look at it again. In this case, "the decision" equals Ms. Rowland's.
 
Last edited:
Prosecutors allege "cosmetic motivations" for the mother's refusing surgery. Melissa Rowland, they say, didn't want scars. The article quotes a law professor saying that it's "troubling" that a woman would be charged with murder "because we don’t like the choices she made,” but that comment comes across as rather callous in the context of the impression left by the article, that the "choice" was that of a woman so vain she let a child die rather than spoil her perfect body. There's nothing in the article to suggest there might be any other reason for the woman's refusal.

I read the article last night, and right away something didn't smell right. I think it was the quote from Rowland, saying that the doctors wanted to cut her "from breast bone to pubic bone." That phrase - "from breast bone to pubic bone" - sounds, to my ear, more like a woman's fears talking, rather than anything a doctor would actually say to a patient. My instincts tell me the "cosmetic motivations" story is untrue, although I cannot logically explain why, but The BBC’s coverage adds a rather significant detail the AP left out: Rowland, by her own testimony, at least, had two previous C-sections.

Melissa Rowland has a long history of mental illness. She was first committed to a mental hospital when she was twelve years old. Suddenly the narrative shifts a bit. A frightened, mentally ill, pregnant woman, living on Social Security disability benefits, facing eviction, the father of her children gone, went from hospital to hospital looking for help, and no one knew what to do for her or how to reach her. And because of that, she has been in jail for nearly two months and faces murder charges.
Kent Morgan, deputy Salt Lake County prosecutor and a spokesman for District Attorney David Yocom, said Rowland's crime stems from the depraved indifference and utter callousness she showed toward her unborn twins
There is indeed depraved indifference and utter callousness at the heart of this story, but it's not Melissa Rowland's.

:m: Peace.
 
she is entitled to governance over her body and all that takes place therein.
We aren't going to take any more crap from you "feel good" liberals. Pregnant women, homesexuals, socialist and muslims have been destroying our Christian society for too long. Be ready for lower taxes, more kick-ass war action and many more laws regulating what you can put in or pull out of your body after November.

Women: you are incubators, you have no rights.

:m: Peace.
 
Interesting how pro-abortionist are pretending to be pro-lifers. Your attempt failed. Not because I know that you are pro-abortion but because your mixing issues unrelated to what is within the women. It is meaningless whether the women is a lesbian, a socialist, or a Christian.

"This is nothing if not a very novel legal theory," Sikora said. "If it prevails, it raises questions about what a mother can or cannot do with respect to the safety of her unborn child. If a doctor says this will be a very difficult pregnancy and you should get complete bed rest for the last three months and the mother doesn't and the baby is stillborn, is she guilty of murder? If she smokes, is it murder? If she doesn't eat right, is it murder?"
One technique that mankind has developed for determining their moral ethics is role playing. Place yourself as the fetus. Would you want to live with deformities because your mother couldn't take care of herself?
 
I do not think that criminal law should ever be used to force anyone to have a surgical proceedure.
 
okinrus said:
Interesting how pro-abortionist are pretending to be pro-lifers. Your attempt failed.
I think you missed the sarcasm. Sorry.

:m: Peace.
 
I admit I'm torn with this particular case. I have always argued that a person's body is their own and no one should force a woman to have a cesarean. It was her choice to do so and she refused. She had been warned for several weeks that the babies were in danger and the situation was getting worse as the days passed by and she still refused to have the cesarean and it was her choice. However having said that, I feel this sense of horror at how any person could sit there and know that by refusing they'd be putting their child in danger. She had had two cesareans in the past yet she refused this one. I keep asking myself why? She knew what was involved in a cesarean, she would have known how they cut, so why did she now think that she'd have been cut from pubic bone to breast bone? Could her fear combined with her mental illness have overcome the knowledge and experience from her previous cesareans? I understand that her mental illness would have played a major part for her acting as she did. Deep down I just feel a sense of sadness that all this could have happened.

But regardless of this, she should not be charged with murder. She acted out of her own well being or what she thought would have been her well being at the time. This was a woman who was mentally ill and who had been told that her twins were in extreme distress and instead of comforting her, she is possibly told that she would have to be cut from pubic to breast bone. I'm still amazed that such a statement could have been made to her from people who should have known better. I am suprised that no other options were made to her apart from the cesarean. For example, when the first signs of the babies distress, why wasn't she offered the option of inducing the labour, thereby allowing her to deliver the children naturally within a matter of hours. I know many women whose babies were in distress and were told that they had to have a cesarean and many of them were amazed that they were never offered the choice of inducing the birth as an alternative when the danger signs were first discovered for the child. Some asked for the child to be induced and were admitted to hospital the same day and delivered within hours before the baby's situation became worse. Why wasn't she given that option?

This whole situation is tragic. A mentally ill woman is being charged with murder and a child is dead while another is in hospital. I want to blame her, but I can't. I feel horror at her decision but I also feel sadness because she was let down by the whole system who should have been there to help her.
 
The case is ridiculous.

The woman shouldn't have been allowed to reproduce in the first place.

She should have gotten better medical (mental) care in the second case, and in the third case - she should not be charged with murder for what is at most wilful negligance.

This illustrates perfectly the folly of liberalism - first, allow the mentally disturbed and genetically unfit to breed. Then, take away their "right" to make whatever fucked-up decisions over their bodies that they think necessary.
 
What about the issue of her use of alcohol and marijauna during the pregnancy? She's tested positive for cocaine in her system as well. Should that factor into the charges?

This woman is a sorry excuse for a human being, but I don't know that I'm ready to see the predictably American knee-jerk legislation that typically follows a story like this.
 
It's rather difficult to assume the fetus as real as you because A) you are already an identity as you've always come to know yourself as being, and
Well, the condition for A simply does not matter. The fact remains that what your mother did while you were in the womb may effect you after you are born. Thus, abuse to you while you were in the womb may also effect you after you are born. The lasting effects of the abuse in the future, the full consequence of her actions, are how we judge. In reality, though, the argument that I present does not rule out abortion; you disagree because you are unused to judging actions by their future consequences.

B) the fetus has not yet been consumed by a peripheral universe. Granted, I concur that one would not wish to be born deformed -- hell, who wouldn't (that is so an unfair proposition
What exactly do you mean by peripheral universe?

) -- but a mother is also in care of a society that knows nothing of preparing for future generations. Hear something about global warming? Nuclear weaponry? Ecocide and genocide? GM food products? Tanker oil leaks? Consumer pollution? The rat-race? And so on and so on? I said this once before and I'll say it again: get your stupid house in order before attacking the individual, just so as to make yourselves worth while before the impending destruction of mother Earth.
I remarked before that other issues did not effect the judgement here. Attacking the individual? No, it seems that the women was a mental patient, and patients who are unrespectful to human life are usually kept from killing or injuring themselves and other human life.
 
So what you're proposing is the creation of a perfect human being and anyone who is not born perfectly would have the right to sue their mommy to kingdom come.
Where did I say that?

I've got a 'beauty mark' on the right side-tip of my nose. My cat had one on his left side. Imagine -- perhaps my mom drank too much coffee? (She's a southerner.) Should I sue because she didn't have the decency to cut back on caffeine while carrying me?
No, but if it can be proven that your mother attempted to physically harm you, then she's liable. I'm not sure why your differentiating between the fetus and the newborn baby. If harming the fetus harms the baby, then she should be charged with the harm inflicted on the baby.
 
Yes, Xev ... honesty and integrity are so horrible for society.

Such is the folly of being human.
 
This illustrates perfectly the folly of liberalism - first, allow the mentally disturbed and genetically unfit to breed.
What kinds of people are genetically unfit to breed?
 
This is a great case for abortion-opponents as its hard to argue that this woman made the right decision here. I think its a knee-jerk response for a lot of people hearing this to say "somethign should have been done!", including in this case a lot of people who support abortion-rights.
The problem is, if people are consistent with their beliefs on such things then they're going to find themselves supporting things that seem wrong, like this case.
Either fetuses are people who can be murdered or they are not. The law in this country right now is(I think rightly so) that they are not, and this case is absurd.
The hope of course is that people who are repulsed by what this woman did will convict her, and that it will lead to the laws being changed back to the way they were when women had to obtain abortions from outside the medical community.
To me that seems like the greater of two evils.
 
No, I don't think so jps, at least not from a rational perspective. Ignoring the mitigating factors in this, Rowland acted in a way that would kill her babies in the future. Accepting the abortionist's belief that the fetus is not a person, it's more or less premeditated murder with the person not existing yet. An analogy would be putting poison in a newborn's food before the baby arrives. At the moment the poison is put into the food, the crime is commited. However, the crime does not come into fruition until the new born baby eats his or her food.
 
all the answers on that poll mean the same thing. So what's the point? Why should someone be forced to have every layer of their skin cut open? I know of someone who did that and can no longer have children because she was damaged in the process.
 
Im going to have to say tragic. Without a Cesarean I wouldn't be here.
Im glad I am here.
 
Back
Top