A New Start

[Andrew111]

if you show me a man who cares and he will be a saint among men god dose care about us dont give up your faith and dont follow false gods and you will go with him to heaven. Be good inside ask forgivness for your sins remember god is every where lift a rock and he is there life is good god will return.

i have never been a church going person if fact i could say perhaps 6 / 10 times in my entier life but just recently i have been seeing things after facing death and looking at my soul and deciding that i need to have beleef

i was on the other forums Genral thoughts ect

if you want to read what i have said the please do i have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Hoth]

If you need it to get through whatever you're facing, then perhaps religion is good for you. Based on your posts though, you don't seem secure at all... you seem to be fighting something and trying very hard to hide behind religion to escape from it, but the effort you put into that seems to hint that it isn't working very well. It doesn't seem to be making you feel more secure so far since you still have the need to reassure yourself constantly with your posts. Maybe religion is a part of your solution but that type of added stability won't really work until you've stabilized in other ways. Not that I know anything at all about your situation but your posts seem to indicate that you're not in a normal state of life.

if you show me a man who cares and he will be a saint among men

If you show me someone who doesn't care about anything, they're either a liar or dead. If you mean someone who cares about people other than their self, I wouldn't be so pessimistic as to assume you have to be saint-like to care about people. Most people (though certainly not all) care in one way or another even though it won't show through in every situation and people express it in a variety of ways.

 

[Ekimklaw]

Originally posted by Andrew111
if you show me a man who cares and he will be a saint among men god dose care about us dont give up your faith and dont follow false gods and you will go with him to heaven. Be good inside ask forgivness for your sins remember god is every where lift a rock and he is there life is good god will return.

i have never been a church going person if fact i could say perhaps 6 / 10 times in my entier life but just recently i have been seeing things after facing death and looking at my soul and deciding that i need to have beleef

i was on the other forums Genral thoughts ect

if you want to read what i have said the please do i have nothing to be ashamed of.

Andrew,

Here is some genuine loving advice from a Christian brother. Before you venture out to convert the heathen, you need to spend some serious time in the word. Get to know the message in it's entirety. In other words, become firmly rooted in God's word. Incidently there are two ways to convert the heathen. One is good the other is bad. The two ways are with love and with "the sword" (by "sword" I mean any kind of violent or heavy handed method). "The sword" is used by frustrated psuedo-Christians who are not firmly grounded in scripture. Those who are well rooted in scripture realize the meaning behind the parable of the sower (scatter the seed... some will grow, some will not) You will also realize that Jesus never FORCED anyone into belief. It is always, and will always be, a personal choice.

Right now though Andrew, you need to study your Bible. Start with The Gospel of John, then read Romans. Then study the other epistles (Timothy, Peter, etc.) Doing this you will begin to feel comfortable with what you believe and you will be FIRMLY rooted in the word of God.

Then find a good Bible church. One that bases it's beliefs on scripture, not human philosophy. There you will find other Christians who are searching and dealing with daily life in this sinful world. Once you become a member of the church you will be assigned a deacon who will help you with your questions.

Hope this helps.

*note to Atheists - Sorry, I just wanted to give this fellow believer some advice. No offense

-Mike

 

[lotuseatsvipers]

and after you are done reading how god hates 'fags' in Romans, you can mosey on over to the old testament where he just seems to hate everyone.

have fun.

 

[Cris]

Ekim, Andrew,

*note to Atheists - Sorry, I just wanted to give this fellow believer some advice. No offense

That's fine with me. It is said that many atheists became atheists after reading the bible. Whereas most Christians have never read it at all. The subsequent indoctrination is of some concern though.

But for now it looks clear that Andrew needs some form of guidance and he must then decide for himself.

But I would strongly advise Andrew that before he takes on any field of study or potential indoctrination then he should first learn how to think clearly so that he will then know if he is being presented with something of value or just garbage.

The link below is an introduction on how to think.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html

Here is a very short extract -

As a college professor, I am especially concerned with this third problem. Most of the freshman and sophomore students in my classes simply do not know how to draw reasonable conclusions from the evidence. At most, they've been taught in high school what to think; few of them know how to think.

Hope this helps.
Cris

 

[Ekimklaw]

Originally posted by lotuseatsvipers
and after you are done reading how god hates 'fags' in Romans, you can mosey on over to the old testament where he just seems to hate everyone.

have fun.

*sigh*

God does not hate anything but sin. An objective reading of the Bible would tell you this.

My post was intended for a Christian brother, NOT atheists, NOT those undecided.

-Mike

 

[Ekimklaw]

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Cris wrote:
That's fine with me.
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Oh, thanks Cris.


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Cris wrote:
It is said that many atheists became atheists after reading the bible.
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Reading the bible or mocking the Bible? Irregardless many more have become Christians by reading (and studying) the Bible than have become atheists. I have numbers to back up my assertion if you want them.

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Cris wrote:
Whereas most Christians have never read it at all.
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I think there are an alarming percentage of people who CLAIM to be Christians. The real problem here is false conversion. A person is scared into, or is sweet talked into, or is forced somehow into professing Christianity. These people soon fall away, realizing their conversion was not genuine. Genuine conversion, that which starts with serious repentence of sin, comes from within. These people thirst for the word like thier lives depend on it. Each time they study the word they feel energized and renewed. Anyone can say they are a Christian. But like my ol' Grandpa used to say, "Just because you sit in a henhouse, don't make you a chicken."

Or put it another way:

If someone told you an apple tree (with apples clearly visable) was really an orange tree, what would you believe to be the truth?

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Cris wrote:
The subsequent indoctrination is of some concern though.
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You mean the indoctrination you posted?

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Cris wrote:
But for now it looks clear that Andrew needs some form of guidance and he must then decide for himself.
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I think he has already decided.

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Cris wrote:
But I would strongly advise Andrew that before he takes on any field of study or potential indoctrination
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You mean potential *Christian* indoctrination... atheistic indoctrination is termed "clear thinking". Very subtle Cris. Seems almost sinister.

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Cris wrote:
then he should first learn how to think clearly so that he will then know if he is being presented with something of value or just garbage.
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Remember Cris's view is:
Christianity = Garbage
Atheism = Something of value

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Cris wrote:
The link below is an introduction on how to think.
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You mean how to think like an atheist. You are assuming that since he has decided to be a Christian (apparently) he has made an error. Seems I'm not the only one guilty of prosyletizing here...

-Mike

Ps. Cris, you still haven't responded to my lengthy response to you yet on the "A too funny response" thread. You seem to have plenty of time to debate Chosen. Are you avoiding me? Hmmmm..

 

[lotuseatsvipers]

ekimklaw, you sound rediculous.

"If someone converts but then 'falls away' its because they never 'truly' converted."
haha

"Anyone objectively reading the bible can get the truth from it"
so why do so many Christians share differing views, or are those not 'true' christians either?

Are you telling us there arent any contradictions in the bible? please say yes, i'm feeling a little down today.

I'll leave it at that. I'm sure your illogical side has been shown to you a thousand times on this message board.

 

[Ekimklaw]

Here is LOTUS EATS VIPERS... yet another enlightened anti-theist who is not content to share his views with me, but must instead condescendingly mock and slander.

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LOTUS EATS VIPERS wrote:
ekimklaw, you sound rediculous.
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You contend that I "sound" rediculous, yet you have never heard my voice.

You must mean that you find the assertions I post on this forum to be worthy of mockery because you find my views comical in light of your own. That may be. But does that really change anything?

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LOTUS EATS VIPERS wrote:
"If someone converts but then 'falls away' its because they never 'truly' converted." haha
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While you are laughing, post some reasons that this notion is impossible.

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LOTUS EATS VIPERS wrote:
"Anyone objectively reading the bible can get the truth from it"
so why do so many Christians share differing views, or are those not 'true' christians either?
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Cuz we're not robots? The views may differ on incosequential things, but on the "heart" of the matter, most Christians agree. Contact me if you want all of those things detailed for you.

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LOTUS EATS VIPERS wrote:
Are you telling us there arent any contradictions in the bible? please say yes, i'm feeling a little down today.
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Yes. Give me an example of a contradiction.

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LOTUS EATS VIPERS wrote:
I'll leave it at that. I'm sure your illogical side has been shown to you a thousand times on this message board.
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Ouch. Such an angry message toward a person who has NEVER said anything harsh to you. You must be dealing with more than a few preconcieved notions...

Oh well... Since I'm so rediculous you must have laughed your shoes off over this post. You can't feel "down" now...

-Mike

 

[Cris]

Ekim,

Ps. Cris, you still haven't responded to my lengthy response to you yet on the "A too funny response" thread. You seem to have plenty of time to debate Chosen. Are you avoiding me? Hmmmm..

Pretty much all the issues you raised there were adequately answered by others. However, reaching back to respond to older posts that have been mainly answered is of dubious value. We’ve moved on. I apologize that my vacation prevented a more timely response. You might also consider that I might find Chosen’s post and debates of more value than yours. I do have limited time and must make choices. But I will make an attempt to review your post again.

However, in a similar vein I somewhat expected a response from you on my final post that provided conclusive proof that the Christian god cannot exist in the “Proof that God cannot exist thread”. This was your thread after all. I assume you are avoiding me because I have clearly shown your god cannot exist and you are now faced with having to accept that all your beliefs are pure delusions.

I recommend you don’t play games of who responded to whom and make any implications from lack of responses. I can play that game too.

You mean potential *Christian* indoctrination... atheistic indoctrination is termed "clear thinking". Very subtle Cris. Seems almost sinister.

All religions involve indoctrination, and Xtianity is no exception.

From webster: Indoctrination: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

And yes atheism is based on ‘clear thinking’, logic and reason. Here is an atheist website that describes the detailed issues of logic and rational thought. These are the primary methods used by atheism. This is not propaganda or doctrine.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

The bible contains no such discussion but specifically emphasizes that reason should not be used. If atheism is guilty of teaching people to think clearly then I’m all for such atheist indoctrination.

Remember Cris's view is:
Christianity = Garbage
Atheism = Something of value

Reasonably accurate. But remember you can’t show that xtianity is not garbage since you cannot show any proofs for your claims. And since atheism makes no claims but instead makes reasonable requests for you to prove your claims then clearly atheism is of immense value.

You mean how to think like an atheist. You are assuming that since he has decided to be a Christian (apparently) he has made an error. Seems I'm not the only one guilty of prosyletizing here...

I made no mention of atheism but merely a call to be able to think clearly. But yes that does also imply thinking like an atheist, and I am pleased you were able to make the link between clear thinking and atheism. And since you seem to be against clear thinking you are at least admitting that xtianity does not involve clear thinking.

You failed to note that I was not advising against xtianity. If xtianity has any value then shouldn’t you want someone to be able to evaluate its claims using clear thinking. You again demonstrate your fear that if someone can think clearly then they won’t accept xtianity. And I think your fears are very valid.

Cris

 

[Ekimklaw]

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Cris wrote:
Pretty much all the issues you raised there were adequately answered by others.
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I questioned you specifically.

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However, reaching back to respond to older posts that have been mainly answered is of dubious value. We’ve moved on.
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Especially if said posts are impossible to answer.

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Cris wrote:
I apologize that my vacation prevented a more timely response. You might also consider that I might find Chosen’s post and debates of more value than yours. I do have limited time and must make choices.
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gee. That hurts me...

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Cris wrote:
But I will make an attempt to review your post again.
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Forget it.

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Cris wrote:
However, in a similar vein I somewhat expected a response from you on my final post that provided conclusive proof that the Christian god cannot exist in the “Proof that God cannot exist thread”. This was your thread after all.
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Funny... you never sent me a private message about that.

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Cris wrote:
I assume you are avoiding me because I have clearly shown your god cannot exist and you are now faced with having to accept that all your beliefs are pure delusions.
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Avoided... no. Forgotten... yes. With so many posts and replies, I sometime forget where I left off. I've taken to writing down the threads I post in so I'll know.

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Cris wrote:
I recommend you don’t play games of who responded to whom and make any implications from lack of responses. I can play that game too.
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Games? No games. I was interested in your take on some specific things. Forget it. I'm not interested anymore.

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Cris wrote:
All religions involve indoctrination, and Xtianity is no exception.
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To teach doctrine is a must in religious learning.

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Cris wrote:
From webster: Indoctrination: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
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Look up "doctrine".

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Cris wrote:
And yes atheism is based on ‘clear thinking’, logic and reason. Here is an atheist website that describes the detailed issues of logic and rational thought. These are the primary methods used by atheism. This is not propaganda or doctrine.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
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Cool. Does that mean you are an infidel?

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Cris wrote:
The bible contains no such discussion but specifically emphasizes that reason should not be used.
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Cite one example in the Bible that says not to use reason.

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Cris wrote:
If atheism is guilty of teaching people to think clearly then I’m all or such atheist indoctrination.
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Stop it... you're indoctrinating me.

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Cris wrote
...remember you can’t show that xtianity is not garbage since you cannot show any proofs for your claims.
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Cris, is this an example of your "clear thinking"?

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Cris wrote:
And since atheism makes no claims...
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Makes no claims? Are you kidding? You mean your post, for instance, makes NO claims?

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Cris wrote:
but instead makes reasonable requests for you to prove your claims then clearly atheism is of immense value.
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Why is it reasonable to ask me to prove mine, but unreasonable to ask you to prove yours? I told you my proof and you explained it away. Are you asking for more things to explain away?

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Cris wrote:
I made no mention of atheism but merely a call to be able to think clearly. But yes that does also imply thinking like an atheist, and I am pleased you were able to make the link between clear thinking and atheism.
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So to think clearly means to be an atheist. Right. What about agnostics? Are they thinking unclearly too?

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Cris wrote:
And since you seem to be against clear thinking you are at least admitting that xtianity does not involve clear thinking.
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Cris this one sentence reveals you to be very illogical and shows why you are easy to deal with in a debate. I never said, or implied that I was against clear thinking. I NEVER "admitted" that CHRISTianity does not involve clear thinking. This is a result of your condescending prejudiced view of all religious people. Please do not put words in my mouth.

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Cris wrote:
You failed to note that I was not advising against xtianity. If xtianity has any value then shouldn’t you want someone to be able to evaluate its claims using clear thinking.
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No, Cris... I want an army of mind-numbed zombies, marching as if dazed in lockstep with my evil cultish commands. By the way, that was sarcasm... so don't get mad or offended. Of course I want someone to think clearly. To think clearly you must hear both sides. Then evaluate.

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Cris wrote:
You again demonstrate your fear that if someone can think clearly then they won’t accept xtianity. And I think your fears are very valid.
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Whether someone accepts Christ as Savior or not is up to them. I have no "fear". But again, your supposition that clear thinking = atheism is flawed. That is your opinion, and nothing more, or less.

I admit that clear thinking people frequently choose atheism. That is their choice and is totally up to them. I do not conclude that one is not clear thinking because they chose atheism. Nor do I suppose that every confessing Christian is a brilliant thinker.

Such blanket statements are useless.


-Mike

 

[Zero]

to Andrew111

Note to Andrew. If you want to convert the heathen, you'd better spend some time contemplating and analyzing the possible counter arguments. If you're out there and someone like Avatar or Xev comes along, citing the bible and logically disproving you, your efforts will come to naught. It is a tougher business than the Medieval Ages when everyone was stupid. When you go, come prepared for logical and rational onslaught. Good luck to you from an atheist.

 

[Zero]

I do nto agree with either of you. Cris, good people can come out of religion. Good individuals are possible even though the system is totally screwed up. Ekim, I respect your efforts but why you spend all that time answering every single post that irks you is a mystery to me.

As for my views on religion, I would say that religion is a hopeless dream. Cmon, the world is cold out there, and there is no one up there to baby you with some divine power if you get fucked up. No free lunches. If you fuck up, it's up to yourself to get out of the shit. Pray on, you're stuck in a dream. The whole bible is just what it is. A book. A well selling book with a cool leather cover.

But, I do respect individuals from religion even though I think religious doctrine is absolute bullshit.

 

[Avatar]

Re: to Andrew111

Originally posted by Zero
Note to Andrew. If you want to convert the heathen, you'd better spend some time contemplating and analyzing the possible counter arguments. If you're out there and someone like Avatar or Xev comes along, citing the bible and logically disproving you, your efforts will come to naught. It is a tougher business than the Medieval Ages when everyone was stupid. When you go, come prepared for logical and rational onslaught. Good luck to you from an atheist.

disprooving born again christians becomes boring, because they all put their money on the same cards. I'd really like to meet an intelligent theist, but there are very few here... Tony1 was interesting and Tiassa is a wiccan I think.
IMHO- from my own experience-> most more intelligent people are atheists or also buddhist like i.e. that do not believe in some divine beings...
I can't say a 100% that no god exists, but the chance for a god existing is like a live Mickey Mouse in another dimension. Probable, but not likable...

But religions such as christianity are really fun and I smtimes get scared about the stupidity of people who fall for it and they are the MAJORITY here on earth (my assumption afrom my observations). Christianity AND Islam AND Judaism and other big religions. As for paganism, then there are so many forms of it, that I can't tell for all. if anybody ever bothered to read my thread about latvian paganism then he would have found some interesting parts...You can even be a latvian heathen and not believe in any of our gods...rather unique...smth like a buddhism in some aspects...but we are a small nation...

 

[Cris]

Ekim,

I questioned you specifically.

This is an open public forum; anyone is free to answer, as they did. Your points were answered.

Especially if said posts are impossible to answer.

Or that the post held no valid points worthy of comment, or where earlier statements were simply ignored and/or misunderstood. To continue to answer posts where the opponent is deliberately misconstruing and ignoring earlier posts is both tiring and a waste of time.

gee. That hurts me...

You are a fundamentalist xtian and you have demonstrated that your mind is closed to alternative ideas or opposing ideas. In this sense there is little to be gained from debating with you especially since your style tends towards overwhelming sarcasm and cynicism.

Forget it.

As you wish.

However, in a similar vein I somewhat expected a response from you on my final post that provided conclusive proof that the Christian god cannot exist in the “Proof that God cannot exist thread”. This was your thread after all.

Funny... you never sent me a private message about that.

There is no protocol here for sending a PM when a post is made. It was your thread and if you were interested in additions to your threads then there is an option on these forums where you can be automatically notified via email when a post is made. Since we were actively following a debate there, then it seemed reasonable for you to continue especially when my last rebuttal was quite strong. This is consistent with your demand that I respond to one of your posts in another thread that you are making into an issue here. Are you not being hypocritical here? While our earlier debate concerned some dubious aspects of homosexuality, your thread was specifically concerned with the existence of your god. It seems incredulous that you would not want to attempt to rebut my post on what to you and me is an important issue. If I am wrong then I’d like to see your arguments. If you are wrong then it has significant implications for your life.

Avoided... no. Forgotten... yes. With so many posts and replies, I sometime forget where I left off. I've taken to writing down the threads I post in so I'll know.

But the debate was in one of your own threads. Your answer is not credible.

Games? No games. I was interested in your take on some specific things. Forget it. I'm not interested anymore.

Again, as you wish.

Cool. Does that mean you are an infidel?

The point concerned logic. Your comment here appears irrelevant to the argument.

Cite one example in the Bible that says not to use reason.

I’m tempted not to quote anything since xtianity has had 2000 years to construct its rationalizations of awkward biblical texts. And rationalization here means making something that IS irrational appear rational. However, if I don’t quote then your predictable retort will be to say that I am wrong. And if I do quote then you will simply retort with your own prejudiced interpretations. On this issue I am simply between a rock and hardplace.

However, the entire issue of whether xtianity encourages reason or not is clearly that it does not since it overwhelmingly emphasizes the importance of faith. In this context faith is the opposite of reason. If xtianity could be argued based on reason then faith would clearly not be required. But this has been debated many times at sciforums.

But here are a few quotes –

Mark 4.11-12. – To use reason is of no value.
Colossians 2.8 – Do not listen to those who use reason instead of Christ’s teachings.
1 Corinthians 1.18-27 – Human reason is of no value and foolish and will be destroyed anyway.
1 Corinthians 3.18-19 – God sees human reason as foolish.
1 Corinthians 2.14 – Reason is of no value since it is not spiritually discerned.
Romans 3.7-8 – Paul argues that it is OK to lie and do evil if it will further xtianity.

...remember you can’t show that xtianity is not garbage since you cannot show any proofs for your claims.
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Cris, is this an example of your "clear thinking"?

Why did you find that difficult to understand? Put more simply then: All the time you cannot show any factual basis for xtian claims then how do we know that xtianity is not garbage?

And since atheism makes no claims...
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Makes no claims? Are you kidding? You mean your post, for instance, makes NO claims?

The root of atheism is a disbelief in theistic claims. Disbeliefs do not represent claims. This is mainstream modern atheism. But yes some atheists will go further and claim specific gods cannot exist.

Why is it reasonable to ask me to prove mine, but unreasonable to ask you to prove yours? I told you my proof and you explained it away. Are you asking for more things to explain away?

I have proved mine and you haven’t been able refute it. You haven’t provided any proofs and neither has any other xtian. If there were proofs then you would have no need of faith, which is continually stressed within xtianity. And being able to successfully refute your arguments is not ‘explaining them away’. If you disagree then show me your alleged proof again.

I never said, or implied that I was against clear thinking. I NEVER "admitted" that CHRISTianity does not involve clear thinking.

You are right I was much too subtle.

1. You stated - atheistic indoctrination is termed "clear thinking".
2. I showed that indeed atheism is about clear thinking, i.e. logic.
3. You believe that atheism is wrong.
4. You must believe that clear thinking is wrong, from 2 and 3.
5. The conclusion in 4 also holds for xtianity.

Now I will admit I was merely mimicking your own original sarcasm.

Whether someone accepts Christ as Savior or not is up to them. I have no "fear". But again, your supposition that clear thinking = atheism is flawed. That is your opinion, and nothing more, or less.

As I mentioned earlier this issue is part of the much older and wider debate over faith versus reason, and ultimately the debate about epistemology. We are highly unlikely to resolve it here.

The fear of xtianity is shown when it must use what could be called derogatory propaganda, such as the biblical quotes above that attempt to show that the wise and the those who use reason are wasting their time and are foolish. The famous quote from Psalms 14.1 (the fool says in his heart there is no god, they are corrupt, do abominable deeds, and do no good), also shows the need to belittle those who reason other than the xtian way. If xtianity could stand on its own then there would be no need for such statements, but the fear is that if people start to think for themselves then they will reject xtianity since it does not stand up to reason.

I admit that clear thinking people frequently choose atheism. That is their choice and is totally up to them. I do not conclude that one is not clear thinking because they chose atheism. Nor do I suppose that every confessing Christian is a brilliant thinker.

Ekim, I fully agree with you, so why are we having this silly argument?

I began in this debate agreeing with you that Andrew needed some advice and I really was not arguing against xtianity. I think you misunderstood my posts and assumed I was attacking xtianity, I was not. Throughout my entire school life I had to take part in daily acts of xtian worship and took part in xtian studies. This was compulsory and law in the UK for all state schools. A few years ago the Archbishop of Canterbury (the head of the Church of England) commented in the press that Britain had become overwhelmingly the most atheist nation in Europe. My conclusion is that such widespread exposure to xtianity does not lead to conversion but enlightenment about the irrelevance of xtianity to modern times.

If xtianity is taught at the same time as critical thinking then I strongly believe that the result will be a rejection of xtianity in most cases. It is interesting that xtianity is not taught in US state schools yet the USA is one of the most religious countries in the world. It looks to me that US children are only obtaining a superficial education in religion and are primarily accepting traditional beliefs without any real understanding. If they truly understood what they were being asked to believe then most would reject it as they do in the UK.

My objection to your suggestion that Andrew find a church etc., is that he will be only exposed to one side of the issue. In short he will be indoctrinated rather than taught in an impartial manner.

I don’t know how you intend to take this although I will state for the record that too much sarcasm and cynicism tend to be unproductive in debates such as these.

Cris

 

[Ekimklaw]

Cris,

The purpose of our debate is to discuss our perspectives on facts, and or beliefs or opinions. Neither one of us will convince the other. However, those who are undecided can read our debates and then make a decision.

With that thought in mind I attempt here to refute your assertion that the bible encourages Christians not to think. You have cited a number of verses. I will respond to each.

First let me preface my comments with the following statement. Your "comments" on each verse reveal either a desire to cast scripure in a negative light by subterfuge, or you are incapable of understanding the meaning. Anyway, it is for the undecided I try to clear this up.

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Cris wrote:
Mark 4.11-12. – To use reason is of no value.
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Here is the scripture...

"And He said to them, To you has been entrusted the mystery of the kingdom of God [that is, the secret counsels of God which are hidden from the ungodly]; but for those outside [of our circle] everything becomes a parable,
In order that they may [indeed] look and look but not see and perceive, and may hear and hear but not grasp and comprehend, lest haply they should turn again, and it [ their willful rejection of the truth] should be forgiven them."

This is talking about people who have selective hearing. People like you Cris.

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Cris wrote:
Colossians 2.8 – Do not listen to those who use reason instead of Christ’s teachings.
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Here's the verse:

"See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah)."

This verse is written to converted, born again people. Those who have decided already. Obviously if we follow Christ we must keep his word.

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Cris wrote:
1 Corinthians 1.18-27 – Human reason is of no value and foolish and will be destroyed anyway.
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Here is the scripture:

"For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God."

I see this every day on this forum. The message of Jesus is continually mocked and impugned. This says NOTHING about human reason, much less it being valueless.

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Cris wrote:
1 Corinthians 3.18-19 – God sees human reason as foolish.
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The scripture in question:

"Let no person deceive himself. If anyone among you supposes that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool [let him discard his worldly discernment and recognize himself as dull, stupid, and foolish, without true learning and scholarship], that he may become [really] wise.
For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their [own] craftiness."

Do you think God would approve of people who reject his love? His message? His salvation? Of course to Him our "wisdom" seems foolish. He is God. We are not.

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Cris wrote:
1 Corinthians 2.14 – Reason is of no value since it is not spiritually discerned.
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The scripture in question:

"But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated."

You display this every day Cris. You reject everything that I tell you and express to me how much it is all nonsense. I have told you before that when one becomes a regenerated person, they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who helps then discern the truth about what they read, etc. You would reject this as "folly" just as the Bible says. It is talking about rejecting the truth, not "reason".

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Cris wrote:
Romans 3.7-8 – Paul argues that it is OK to lie and do evil if it will further xtianity.
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Here's the scripture:

"But [you say] if through my falsehood God's integrity is magnified and advertised and abounds to His glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner? And why should we not do evil that good may come?--as some slanderously charge us with teaching. Such [false teaching] is justly condemned by them."

This scripture says exactly OPPOSITE of what you claimed it said. It is rejecting as "slander" any notion that "falsehood" should be practiced for God's "glory".

This is a clear example of your fanatical religious desire to negatively portray Christianity.

Atheism is your religion. Cris, you are as religious as I am, but are too self-centered to realize it.

Most of those scriptures describe you Cris. A rejector of the truth.

By the way, in case you haven't noticed, threads often stray from the original topic. I debated you for 18 pages on the "proof that God exists" thread. I said my bit, you said yours. Don't tell me I avoided your "disproving" of God. You neither proved or disproved anything. You simply displayed your lack of open mindedness to the possibility that you are not the sole keeper of truth.

You avoided my post about the gay lifestyle. I sent you a gentle reminder via PM and you said you would respond. You did not. My gentle ribbing was NOT intended to irritate you. As I said, I valued your opinion. However after your display of prejudice and slander, as well as your self-indulgent narrow-minded attitude toward people of faith, you don't seem so level-headed anymore so I really don't care what you have to say about it.

Had your criticism of scripture (something you know I hold in very high esteem) been less abrasive, perhaps more tactful, and above all accurate, you would still be one atheist here I considered to be level-headed. However you have revealed yourself to be narrow minded, and difficult to communicate with. Therefore you have taken a step down in my mind.

I don't mind honest criticism of the Bible, but when you lie about it, and pull stuff out of context and sum up what a scripture says inaccurately and use partial quotes, that is just plain wrong! You have offended me. I am offended. What's worse is you have no moral imperative to give a damn at all. That makes you unsociable.

I do not expect you to agree with me much, but I DO expect the common courtesy of respecting my beliefs. I respect yours. It is called common courtesy.

I am offended.

If that was your goal Cris, you succeeded beyond your wildest dreams.

-Mike

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by Ekimklaw
If someone told you an apple tree (with apples clearly visable) was really an orange tree, what would you believe to be the truth?

Such event can exist if the person was brought up to view an orange tree as an apple tree. Unless there is a language difficulty between the two, all they need is to exchange their views on orange and apple and then verify them on their own. The truth will be shown after they both looked and tasted the fruits on the tree. The one with the correct description will be the truth.

Atheism is your religion...

Interesting! How about you tell a homeless guy that owning no house is your way to own a house?

 

[Xev]

Atheism is your religion...

Athiesm is a religion in the same way that bald is a hairstyle.

 

[Zero]

Atheism rejects a notion of a superior being, which is in essence the religion. So I would agree with sweet Xev here.

 

[Cris]

Ekim,

Your "comments" on each verse reveal either a desire to cast scripture in a negative light by subterfuge, or you are incapable of understanding the meaning. Anyway, it is for the undecided I try to clear this up.

I understand your perspective and your obvious irritation. It is not that I misunderstand or try to twist the scriptures but that I begin with the knowledge that the case for God has not been proved and assume that he does not exist in the absence of any factual evidence. In that light the interpretations of the scriptures take on quite different meanings.

You interpret them from the assumption that your god does exist and that the scriptures must be true and then you rationalize any potential inconsistencies to make them appear consistent with your already stated bias.

For example if it is claimed that human wisdom can have no value because it is not spiritually derived, then that is fine if wisdom could be derived spiritually. If a spiritual source is a fiction then human wisdom is the best we have, and the scriptures have either quite different meanings or are nonsense.

It is not that I have any disrespect for you or your beliefs but that I see you begin from false assumptions and then everything else you say, no matter how emotional or aggressive, is invalid because your initial assumptions are invalid.

In other words because of your absolute convictions you are unable to view the scriptures objectively and dispassionately. And since you ‘know’ them to be true then anyone who attempts to say otherwise must clearly be perverted, twisted or disrespectful, as you are trying to paint me.

I understand your pride in being able to interpret your scriptures so that they support your perceptions of truth, and I did expect you to analyze my quotes as I said you would. But if god does not exist then everything you say is nonsense.

The discussions of the scriptures have zero value until it can be shown that your god exists. Without that proof Christianity is pointless.

You reject everything that I tell you and express to me how much it is all nonsense. I have told you before that when one becomes a regenerated person, they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who helps then discern the truth about what they read, etc. You would reject this as "folly" just as the Bible says. It is talking about rejecting the truth, not "reason".

But reason is used to determine truth, not the other way around. If you perceive you have determined truth without reason then you cannot know if you have achieved truth.

You should also be aware that the framers of the scriptures would have certainly known they were creating mythologies and would be fully aware that some people would see through their deceptions. So the inclusion of passages that say don’t listen to those who disbelieve is expected propaganda.

But what you are really saying is that I must have faith first then I will be given the truth. In effect the use of reason never enters into the equation. Why then are you making such an issue of my biblical quotes about xtianity not using reason? Whether I am right or wrong? On one hand you are trying to claim that xtianity does use reason and doesn’t dissuade people from using reason and here you are saying that one must believe without reason. So I say again xtianity does not include reason as its basis for its alleged truth.

In your eagerness and pride to show your knowledge of biblical interpretations you appear to have missed the point of the argument.

But that aside, your claim is that a holy spirit will reveal the truth of the bible when I believe without evidential proof, i.e. I must believe on faith first. This implies that once I fully accept these conditions in a genuine manner then all will be revealed while reading the bible. The issue still remains that reason is still not required. The ‘truths’ that I will obtain will be through a spiritual revelation and your implication is that there is no other way. But will there ever come a time when I will not need faith but can depend on reason? It would seem that that is not the case as xtians always continue to emphasize the importance of maintaining and renewing one’s faith, in effect reason is never requested or expected, and actively discouraged in favor of the holy spirit’s revelations/guidance instead. My biblical quotes indicate this quite well I thought.

Atheism is your religion. Cris, you are as religious as I am, but are too self-centered to realize it.

An interesting assertion. I understand your desire to slander atheism since that directly opposes your perceptions, but why is calling atheism a religion slanderous? You are trying to also equate me with you as both being religious. But I assume you see being religious as a good thing, xtianity is after all a religion. But if atheism is a religion and atheism is bad then doesn’t that imply that if xtianity is a religion then xtianity is bad. I know you don’t mean that, so I fail to see why you want to imply that I am religious or that atheism is a religion.

From Webster: Religion: the service and worship of God or the supernatural. Since atheism is the direct opposite of this how do you reason that atheism is a religion?

And what is wrong with being self-centered?

From Webster: Self-centered:
1 : independent of outside force or influence : SELF-SUFFICIENT.
2 : concerned solely with one's own desires, needs, or interests.

This might be true of me but you imply it in a derogatory manner, why? It doesn’t seem relevant to the argument in the same way as claiming atheism is a religion.

You neither proved or disproved anything. You simply displayed your lack of open mindedness to the possibility that you are not the sole keeper of truth.

When you say ‘not the sole keeper of truth’, you seem to be implying that I am at least a keeper of the truth and that there are others. I’m sure you didn’t mean to compliment me.

The term ‘open minded’ is used a lot here and on both sides of our debates. It seems to be used in a hypocritical manner in many cases. When one is accused of this there is often the childish tendency to respond in kind with the same retort. But let’s examine what the term means –

From Webster: Open-minded: receptive to arguments or ideas.

My position as an atheist is that I am requesting theists to prove their claims; none have done so. I am on record several times in these forums as stating that if evidence can be shown then I am perfectly willing to follow the theist truths, and in fact some of the claims for a fatherly figure and an eternal heaven are quite attractive.

The theist position is quite different. The theist claims that a god exists and that that is the final truth. There is no openness to any other ideas or arguments. This fits absolutely perfectly with the opposite of open-mindedness. One could argue that the requirement for proof set by atheists is too difficult, but then if one is being asked to accept the ultimate truth of a creator of the universe then such extraordinary claims should be met with extraordinary evidence.

So to the undecided reading this, who is the more open-minded, the atheist who requests evidence before believing other ideas, or the theist who has already decided there is no room for other ideas?

However after your display of prejudice and slander, as well as your self-indulgent narrow-minded attitude toward people of faith, you don't seem so level-headed anymore so I really don't care what you have to say about it.

Interesting string of abuse.

Had your criticism of scripture (something you know I hold in very high esteem) been less abrasive, perhaps more tactful, and above all accurate, you would still be one atheist here I considered to be level-headed. However you have revealed yourself to be narrow minded, and difficult to communicate with. Therefore you have taken a step down in my mind.

You appear to be in some discomfort when dealing with a strong opponent, perhaps you have not met one before. Trying to deal with someone who has quite different perceptions should be considered a challenge; I certainly enjoy the challenge you present. But trying to disparage someone because they do not accept your perceptions and interpretations does nothing to increase your credibility.

I don't mind honest criticism of the Bible, but when you lie about it, and pull stuff out of context and sum up what a scripture says inaccurately and use partial quotes, that is just plain wrong! You have offended me. I am offended. What's worse is you have no moral imperative to give a damn at all. That makes you unsociable.

No, your assessment is incorrect. My interpretations are different to yours. Your open hostility and emotionalism here is because you are not prepared to consider any other interpretations other than your own, you have an absolute conviction that you are right. This is another essential flaw to theist thinking.

I do not expect you to agree with me much, but I DO expect the common courtesy of respecting my beliefs. I respect yours. It is called common courtesy.

I am offended.

Then you are offended very easily. We are debating religious beliefs, why would I respect something that I consider to be erroneous? That is like saying that one should respect a murderer’s belief that he should be free to murder. You are confusing respect for a person with respect for beliefs. My respect for you has not changed since I am more concerned with the institutions that have made you think the way you do, I see you only as an innocent victim. But I have seen no evidence that you respect my ‘beliefs’, and you have specifically stated that you consider atheism as sinful, how is that respect?

If that was your goal Cris, you succeeded beyond your wildest dreams.

I have no intentions or desires to offend you but I cannot help how you misinterpret what I say. How you feel is entirely your choice.

Cris