A nation's moral standing

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
What forms a nation's "moral standing" in the world? Is that measure absolute, or is it relative to each nation's particular situation?

President Bush held what is expected to be the last press conference of his administration on Monday. Washington Post reporter Michael Abramowitz asked the outgoing president about the nation's moral standing, which prompted a lengthy response:

Q One of the major objectives that the incoming administration has talked frequently about is restoring America's moral standing in the world. And many of the allies of the new President -- I believe that the President-elect himself has talked about the damage that Gitmo, that harsh interrogation tactics that they consider torture, how going to war in Iraq without a U.N. mandate have damaged America's moral standing in the world. I'm wondering basically what is your reaction to that? Do you think that is that something that the next President needs to worry about?

THE PRESIDENT: I strongly disagree with the assessment that our moral standing has been damaged. It may be damaged amongst some of the elite, but people still understand America stands for freedom, that America is a country that provides such great hope.

You go to Africa, you ask Africans about America's generosity and compassion; go to India, and ask about, you know, America's -- their view of America. Go to China and ask. Now, no question parts of Europe have said that we shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq without a mandate, but those are a few countries. Most countries in Europe listened to what 1441 said, which is disclose, disarm or face serious consequences.

Most people take those words seriously. Now, some countries didn't -- even though they might have voted for the resolution. I disagree with this assessment that, you know, people view America in a dim light. I just don't agree with that. And I understand that Gitmo has created controversies. But when it came time for those countries that were criticizing America to take some of those -- some of those detainees, they weren't willing to help out. And so, you know, I just disagree with the assessment, Mike.

I'll remind -- listen, I tell people, yes, you can try to be popular. In certain quarters in Europe, you can be popular by blaming every Middle Eastern problem on Israel. Or you can be popular by joining the International Criminal Court. I guess I could have been popular by accepting Kyoto, which I felt was a flawed treaty, and proposed something different and more constructive.

And in terms of the decisions that I had made to protect the homeland, I wouldn't worry about popularity. What I would worry about is the Constitution of the United States, and putting plans in place that makes it easier to find out what the enemy is thinking, because all these debates will matter not if there's another attack on the homeland. The question won't be, you know, were you critical of this plan or not; the question is going to be, why didn't you do something?

Do you remember what it was like right after September the 11th around here? In press conferences and opinion pieces and in stories -- that sometimes were news stories and sometimes opinion pieces -- people were saying, how come they didn't see it, how come they didn't connect the dots? Do you remember what the environment was like in Washington? I do. When people were hauled up in front of Congress and members of Congress were asking questions about, how come you didn't know this, that, or the other? And then we start putting policy in place -- legal policy in place to connect the dots, and all of a sudden people were saying, how come you're connecting the dots?

And so, Mike, I've heard all that. I've heard all that. My view is, is that most people around the world, they respect America. And some of them doesn't like me, I understand that -- some of the writers and the, you know, opiners and all that. That's fine, that's part of the deal. But I'm more concerned about the country and our -- how people view the United States. They view us as strong, compassionate people who care deeply about the universality of freedom.


(WhiteHouse.gov)

Some would, obviously, disagree with President Bush. Indeed, they might assert that, while the United States stands for freedom, and thus provides hope, it does so despite Bush's years in office. And some might point to UN Resolution 1441, which, as the president stated, said that Iraq must "disclose, disarm or face serious consequences". When Iraq did disclose, it provided a large amount of information to the United Nations—some twelve thousand pages—which the United States government chose to disbelieve. This choice resulted in then-Secretary of State Colin Powell presenting to the UN what turned out to be grotesquely false information. The United States, convinced that Iraq had many weapons of mass destruction, found nothing convincing, just a few empty shells here and there with old residue, but nothing suggesting that Saddam Hussein's forces were remotely as dangerous as the Bush administration suggested.

And critics might also point to Bush's invocation and deflection of the Guantanamo issue: What obligation did other nations have to receive and assimilate our prisoners?

Bush decried Kyoto, the International Criminal Court, and observation of Israel's role in creating controversy and strife in the Middle East as things one might do to be popular, yet isolating our own nation diplomatically while misrepresenting events in what has become an obsessive international conflict does not seem prudent. And when one sets two standards of justice—that what is good for the rest of the world is not good enough for Americans—what moral example does that set?

Those who disagree with President Bush might also suggest that his greatest worry about the Constitution of the United States was how to circumvent its authority, which behavior would directly contradict the oath he took upon assuming the office of the President of the United States.

So a question naturally arises whether the moral standing of a nation can be embodied in one individual, e.g., the President of the United States. And the logical answer is that it cannot. Rather, the president has at his disposal an entire administration who helped guide him along the path he followed, and two houses of Congress that, for the most part, empowered every step either directly with endorsement and support, or tacitly by failing to protest, investigate, impeach, or otherwise interfere with what some would claim has become a wildly inflated presidential prerogative.

And beyond that, there are the American people themselves, who give more in raw dollars than any other nation to charitable causes. But as voters, Americans often betray their own alleged national and personal principles. Of course, Americans are not unique in this, although some might suggest the acuity of our betrayal of principle is shocking, astounding, unbelievable, or some other adjective creatively suggesting great severity.

So what, then, forms a nation's moral standing? It is true that few Americans, if any, truly get up in the morning and mutter, "How can I hurt people the most today?" Rather, as the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions°.

Good intentions alone do not make a moral standing; indeed, common sarcasm among Americans includes the phrase, "This is because I love you", something that prior generations often heard either before or after being beaten by a parent. Nor does the failure of good intentions create a moral standing; indeed, the state of evangelical Christianity in the United States, then, could thus cast faith in Jesus as an abomination unto humanity, and therein lies an interesting example. It cannot be denied, after all, that Christians do much charitable work, and in an apparently sincere belief in judgment and redemption, strive to convert everyone else so that those other people will not be left behind. We can, of course, set aside for the time being the theological niceties that suggest Christians must make this effort, or else face punishment themselves°. To the other, though, many Christians regard women poorly, aim to establish political and social supremacy in American culture, or even spent the latter half of the twentieth century obsessed with causing the censorship of music, movies, and books. Some in the twenty-first century would deny civil rights for their neighbors, instead calling upon a tradition that actually dates to the 1950s, left many people miserable, and in many ways resulted in the moral and ethical liberalization of the present that they so loudly and frequently lament. In short, despite the best of intentions, Christianity in the United States is a disaster of nearly schizophrenic proportions. One might say the same thing of American culture in general, too. For all we call upon liberty and justice for all, our society depends in large part on injustice at home and around the world. Especially around the world, as our economic standing is powered in large part by a massive, and growing, poverty class in other nations.

How do we assess a nation's moral standing? Are these criteria uniform for all nations?
____________________

Notes:

° the road to Hell is paved with good intentions — This quote is often attributed to Samuel Johnson, the famous English journalist and author of the eighteenth century. The quote is improperly attributed, as what Johnson allegedly said was that "Hell is paved with good intentions", although this aphorism is not original. It has been documented in the seventeenth century, attributed to John Ray, and dates as far back as the twelfth century, when Saint Bernard of Clairvaux reputedly said, "Hell is full of good intentions or desires".

° Christians must make this effort, or else face punishment themselves — See the twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew.

Works Cited:

"Press Conference by the President". WhiteHouse.gov. January 12, 2009. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2009/01/20090112.html

See Also:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page. Accessed January 13, 2009. http://www.samueljohnson.com/road.html
 
Quite the self indulgent rant. Not many facts but, as usual, nicely formatted.

This is because I love you", something that prior generations often heard either before or after being beaten by a parent

I am sure that must have been said a few times but i dont know anyone 'beaten' by their parents and i am guessing you never were or know very few people who were as well.

It cannot be denied, after all, that Christians do much charitable work, and in an apparently sincere belief in judgment and redemption, strive to convert everyone else so that those other people will not be left behind.

I wonder which part you actually have the problem with. Personally i never had anyone try to convert me but as far as 'striving to convert' that is pretty much BS.

To the other, though, many Christians regard women poorly, aim to establish political and social supremacy in American culture, or even spent the latter half of the twentieth century obsessed with causing the censorship of music, movies, and books.

Perhaps censor pornography in a broad sense but that is done in all societies. As a matter of fact certainly much more prevalent in communist societies. But treating women poorly is just a gratuitous cheap shot and not based in reality. As if you need to be a certain religion to treat women badly.

For all we call upon liberty and justice for all, our society depends in large part on injustice at home and around the world. Especially around the world, as our economic standing is powered in large part by a massive, and growing, poverty class in other nations

I dont agree with that either. Companies from all over the world open up in countries where they did not originate. When a german or Japanese company comes to U.S are they taking advantage of American workers? The truth is that these countries should take care of their own workers.

More mental masturbation from the expert. Very good at bashing but what else is new?
 
W said:
And so, Mike, I've heard all that. I've heard all that. My view is, is that most people around the world, they respect America. And some of them doesn't like me, I understand that -- some of the writers and the, you know, opiners and all that. That's fine, that's part of the deal. But I'm more concerned about the country and our -- how people view the United States. They view us as strong, compassionate people who care deeply about the universality of freedom.
Damn I am sick of that. It isn't even funny any more. It mirrors too closely his entire mode of governance - incoherent, smirking, arrogant negligence. An incapability pretending to be a style. And behind it all, the guy knows exactly what he's getting away with - another lie.

Moral standing's like the lie of the long grass - from a distance, it doesn't appear to matter much. When you have to get somewhere, your walk is much easier with it than against it.
 
Quite the self indulgent rant. Not many facts but, as usual, nicely formatted.

Did you miss the mass demonstrations against America, all over the world, for the past eight years?

What about the part where Iraq "disclosed & disarmed" as per 1441, yet Bush had Powell go to the UN and lie about yellow cake and aluminum tubes? Excuse me, I mean colossal intelligence failure.

Then Bush has the audacity to make shit up?

John, you should really work on not being such a moron. At least, make it look like you're trying not to be braindead.
 
go argue with your daddy...or did you just want to call someone a moron and braindead? that is not what is being discussed here.
 
What are the criteria for that judgment?

Draqon said:

if Anyone to talk of morals, not USA for sure

But why? What are the criteria that the United States have forfeit?
 
But what are the criteria that form a nation's moral standing?

John99 said:

that is not what is being discussed here.

Interesting you should mention that.

In your opinion, what are the criteria that form a nation's moral standing?
 
Interesting you should mention that.

In your opinion, what are the criteria that form a nation's moral standing?

It depends on so many factors that i could not answer that question with the degree of honesty warranted. Morality imposed on others is really an illusion and always has been.

If we can devise a way to eliminate and scrub clean all the impure thoughts of humans and brainwash them then it would erase much of the ingenuity as well. I have no problem with a balanced system and see the benefits of one.

I take it we both grew up with too much freedom so much of your rant is pretty baseless and displays your bias. Without knowing you personally i cannot give a reason for it.
 
I'm sorry, After reading John Pilger. I cannot regard the governments of the west and, by extension, their people (including myself), with nothing but suspicion.
Therefore, I choose to look at the collective accomplishments rather than any one individual.
 
A government with high moral standing is one that is freely giving of itself to other nations, dependable and honest with its allies, stern but flexible with its opponents, generous with its wealth and power, considerate of its neighbors, proud but not arrogant, strong but not boastful, determined and yet merciful, slow to anger but powerful when provoked. A moral nation has a noble character, will go to war in defense of her friends, will give humanitarian aid without a thought following a natural disaster abroad, will consult her allies if need be, but also be willing to do the unpopular (albeit right) thing.
 
thats your opinion. and whether or not the Bush administration adhered to the above principles, they are the ideals that the people of this country ultimately strive for.
 
thats your opinion. and whether or not the Bush administration adhered to the above principles, they are the ideals that the people of this country ultimately strive for.

Wrong.

People strive for survival. Like it or not, that's the basic human instinct.
Over the years we've become used to more than surviving, and 1st world nations have become used to prospering. Power always has it's own agenda, which is it's continuation and accumulation. Therefore no western country, or any country with power will ever attempt to seriously attain those principles that you have described. They are naive, and will not likely happen. I kinda expected a little more than naivety, from you, to be honest. No nation can ever attain the goals you stated in this era. They can come close, mind you.
 
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A government with high moral standing is one that is freely giving of itself to other nations, dependable and honest with its allies, stern but flexible with its opponents, generous with its wealth and power, considerate of its neighbors, proud but not arrogant, strong but not boastful, determined and yet merciful, slow to anger but powerful when provoked. A moral nation has a noble character, will go to war in defense of her friends, will give humanitarian aid without a thought following a natural disaster abroad, will consult her allies if need be, but also be willing to do the unpopular (albeit right) thing.

Please name one nation that ever puts its interests below the interest's of other ,less well off nation. The closest I can come is Venezeula, because they've actually got a fair agreement with Cuba.
Medical help in exchange for lower oil prices.,
Venezuela also offered to give cheap oil to the homeless in the US. The offer was rebuffed despite having some initial success.

Chavez:
We want to use these infrastructures to help the poor populations. We have made some progress. We have given instructions to the president of CITGO, Felix Rodriguez. We want that up to 10 percent we refine here. We supply every day to the us 1.5 million barrels of oil, crude and product and we refine, here, close to 800,000 barrels a day refined here in the us. So we would like to take 10 percent of what we refine those products and to offer these products in several modalities to the poor populations. And the pilot project will be starting in Chicago we are already operating in Chicago. Well let’s hope that there’s not going to be any obstacle by the government opposed to this project being implemented, but we will be working in those poor populations.
http://www.democracynow.org/2005/9/20/venezuelas_president_chavez_offers_cheap_oil
 
Wrong.

People strive for survival. Like it or not, that's the basic human instinct.
Over the years we've become used to more than surviving, and 1st world nations have become used to prospering. Power always has it's own agenda, which is it's continuation and accumulation. Therefore no western country, or any country with power will ever attempt to seriously attain those principles that you have described. They are naive, and will not likely happen. I kinda expected a little more than naivety, from you, to be honest. No nation can ever attain the goals you stated in this era. They can come close, mind you.

Call it naivety or call it idealism, whichever way you see it. It doesn't matter that the goals i stated above may be nigh unattainable - they are still goals worth striving for, and whether or not they are realistic, they are the things that matter most.
 
Call it naivety or call it idealism, whichever way you see it. It doesn't matter that the goals i stated above may be nigh unattainable - they are still goals worth striving for, and whether or not they are realistic, they are the things that matter most.

"The things that matter most"..If only people were willing to die for those goals.
 
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