a moral arguement against theism

mis-t-highs

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a moral arguement against theism

Examples of objective moral truths.

Here, now, are a few examples of moral principles that I take to be paradigms of objective moral truths:

P1: It is morally wrong to deliberately and mercilessly slaughter men, women, and children who are innocent of any serious wrongdoing.

A particularly gross violation of this principle is to be found in the genocidal policies of the Nazi SS who, following the orders of Hitler, slaughtered 6 million Jews, together with countless Gypsies, homosexuals, and other so-called "undesirables." It is no excuse, as I see it, that they believed themselves to be cutting out a cancer from society, or that they were, as Hitler explained in 1933, merely doing to the Jews what Christians had been preaching for 2000 years.[6] Another, more recent, violation of this principle is to be found in the genocidal practices of Milosevic and his henchman for whom it is no excuse to say that they are merely redressing past injustices or, by ethnic cleansing, laying the foundations for a more stable society.

P2. It is morally wrong to provide one's troops with young women captives with the prospect of their being used as sex-slaves.


This principle, or something like it, lies behind our moral revulsion at the policies of the German and Japanese High Commands who selected sexually attractive young women, especially virgins, to give so-called "comfort" to their soldiers. It is irrelevant, I want to say, that most societies, historically, have regarded such comforts as among the accepted spoils of war.

P3. It is morally wrong to make people cannibalize their friends and family.

Perhaps we can imagine situations--such as the plane crash in the Andes--in which cannibalistic acts might be exonerated. But making people eat their own family members--as many Polynesian tribes are reputed to have done--in order to punish them, or to horrify and strike fear into the hearts of their enemies, is unconscionable.

P4. It is morally wrong to practise human sacrifice, by burning or otherwise.

To be sure, human sacrifice was widely accepted by the tribes against whom the children of Israel fought, and--on the other side of the Atlantic--by the Aztecs and Incas. But this--I hope you'll agree--doesn't make the practice acceptable, even if it was done to appease the gods in whom they believed.

P5. It is morally wrong to torture people endlessly for their beliefs.

Perhaps we can think of situations in which it would be permissible to torture someone who is himself a torturer so as to obtain information as to the whereabouts of prisoners who will otherwise die from the injuries he has inflicted on them. But cases like that of Pope Pius V who watched the Roman Inquisition burn a nonconforming religious scholar in about 1570, fall beyond the moral pale; he can't be exonerated on the grounds that he thought he was thereby saving the dissident's soul from the eternal fires of Hell.

On all of these examples, I would like to think, theists and other morally enlightened persons will agree with me. And I would like to think, further, that theists would agree with me in holding that anyone who committed, caused, commanded, or condoned, acts in violation of any of these principles--the five that I will refer to hereafter as "our" principles--is not only evil but should be regarded with abhorrence.

God's violations of our moral principles.
But now comes the linch-pin of my moral argument against theism. For, as I shall now show, the theist God--as he supposedly reveals himself in the Jewish and Christian Bibles--either himself commits, commands others to commit, or condones, acts which violate every one of our five principles.

In violation of P1, for instance, God himself drowned the whole human race except Noah and his family [Gen. 7:23]; he punished King David for carrying out a census that he himself had ordered and then complied with David's request that others be punished instead of him by sending a plague to kill 70,000 people [II Sam. 24:1-15]; and he commanded Joshua to kill old and young, little children, maidens, and women (the inhabitants of some 31 kingdoms) while pursuing his genocidal practices of ethnic cleansing in the lands that orthodox Jews still regard as part of Greater Israel [see Josh., chapter 10 in particular]. These are just three out of hundreds of examples of God's violations of P1.

In violation of P2, after commanding soldiers to slaughter all the Midianite men, women, and young boys without mercy, God permitted the soldiers to use the 32,000 surviving virgins for themselves. [Num. 31:17-18].

In violation of P3, God repeatedly says he has made, or will make, people cannibalize their own children, husbands, wives, parents, and friends because they haven't obeyed him. [Lev. 26:29, Deut. 28:53-58, Jer. 19:9, Ezek. 5:10]

In violation of P4, God condoned Jephthah's act in sacrificing his only child as a burnt offering to God [Judg. 11:30-39].

Finally, in violation of P5, God's own sacrificial "Lamb," Jesus, will watch as he tortures most members of the human race for ever and ever, mainly because they haven't believed in him. The book of Revelation tells us that "everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" [Rev. 13:8] will go to Hell where they "will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night" [Rev. 14:10-11].


extracts from A Moral Argument for Atheism.
Raymond D. Bradley
 
of course it's fearsome, gods wrath fightens the religious, stiff, because people who believe the bible wont budge, and escapistic BS, because the god and bible are pure fantasy. well done rosa.


nice post misty.
 
Let's get something straight: People have, in the past as well as today, USED and ABUSED God to justify their motives.

What was a fight for territory, they interpreted as "doing God's will". What is a bruising of egos, some interpret as "fighting for the right religion". What is covering up one's weaknesses, some call "serving God".

These people are abusing God to excuse themselves and to ease their conscience.
And such doings, one certainly should oppose.

Yet it should be clear that just because someone says "I am doing this because God told me so" -- this does not mean that this is true, neither does it mean that God is the way this person interpreted or defined Him to be.


What is fearsome, stiff, escapistic BS is that there are atheists who try to oppose someone's belief in God on the basis of using actual historical events, done in the name of God, as definitions of God. As if God were what has been done in His name.
No, I say that such thinking is unfair: God is not necessarily what has been done in His name.

I myself have been wronged by Christians. Have I been wronged by their God? That would be easy to think, a quick justification of my hurt.
But no. I think that what one should resent is harmful actions, not the name they were done in.

To compare: In mediaeval times, a knight fought in the name of his lady. When that knight robbed and killed -- will you blame the lady or the knight?

I find it absurd to blame God for the atrocities done in His name.
 
RosaMagica, maybe you didn't read correctly. mis-t-highs didn't use historical examples of people doing things in gods name, he used gods own words from the bible, the book which is the inerrant infallable word of god. God wants to torture you, he is conserned with 'ethnic purity' and will commit genocide to get it, soldiers libidos are more important than a virgens rights, he said it himself. Though I'm willing to agree for the benifit of doubt that most people who tout the bible as the inerrent word of god, do so only in ignorance of what they are agreeing to.
 
There's no such thing as something being morally wrong. Something is only morally wrong before understanding it, or after the fact of understanding it. Actually I don't know if that makes sense but lemme explain a bit better.

Take stem cell research. People feel it's wrong but later they won't. It's just inevitable to happen. And all those other seemingly bad things you listed above weren't morally wrong at the time but are now after much thought on it now that we're a bit more "civilized". And being "civilized" is just doing the same moral changing over time. Things we find "uncivil" may once again happen and people won't have a problem with it. Heck, some things that us "civil" do may be considered immoral to people of the past as well.

Morals change all the time. What one feels as taboo later becomes no problem. What one may see as no problem can later be seen as taboo. I actually don't feel as if ANYTHING is morally wrong so long as it doesn't effect someone against their will. If people on an island are into canabalism, that's fine as that's their thing, but start killing people that want nothing to do with it, then it's bad. The only moral rule that should exist is the Golden Rule.

- N
 
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SpyMoose said:
God wants to torture you,

Please, present the Bible quote that says, "I God, want to torture RosaMagika."


he is conserned with 'ethnic purity' and will commit genocide to get it,

It is normal that tribes keep themselves a certain ethnic purity and be xenophobic. This even more so in the times several millennia back.


Though I'm willing to agree for the benifit of doubt that most people who tout the bible as the inerrent word of god, do so only in ignorance of what they are agreeing to.

God is not only what the Bible says.
 
Zzzzz - snooore - gee, another thread suggesting that Christianity is morally bankrupt. That's suprising!

I sometimes question the motives of athiests who find this sort of thing to be amusing. If you do not accept the idea of a supreme being, why is the idea of an immoral supreme being so upsetting?

What is the satisfaction in endlessly repeating how morally different the Bible is from our standard morality? If you don't believe in a supreme being, you accept that it is human nature and you get over it. Let the dead horse be dead in peace.

Please, present the Bible quote that says, "I God, want to torture RosaMagika."

In IhateRosaMagika Chapter II, verse 27.
 
I think the whole argument is a wonderful, tragic and disturbing commentary on the way people read the Bible. I fail to see the objectivity he mentions.
spymoose said:
...he used gods own words from the bible
Where?
 
Argument against theism eh? Rather, this is an argument against the Old Testament Deity, not theism. Furthermore, if Christians believe that those actions that are said to be by God in the Old Testament, which pertain to objective immorality, then they believe something that knowledgeable Christians have never believed. Those stories were written from the perspective of humans, who believed such actions to be from God (which, in a VERY indirect sense, may be said to be). However, the realistic Christian would read most of such passages as revealing a certain rationale of humans; namely, that we use God as a means to justify bad actions. Also, for other stories of similar effect, we also see them as revealing a common theme of good/bad actions that take place among humankind; namely, that when you perform good actions, good things happen, and when you perform bad actions, bad things happen.

This argument against the Biblical deity is rather poor, since it is based upon a misguided belief in the reality of the actions of the Old Testament God; a beliefe that is only held by the misguided and short of sight.
 
having read though the posts, on this thread.

I have a question for all the religious people, forgive me but am I mistaken, is not Revelations in the new testament.
or do you all have a different version, of the bible to me.
 
Revelations is in the New Testament, and if you ask to indicate the insufficiency of my explanation as only referring to an OT God, there are other threads that I have replied in regarding Hell. I simply do not want to repeat the same stuff for a third or fourth time here. However, stated simply, Hell is not a punishment prescribed by God, it is a self-inflicted punishement, a state chosen, not forced.
 
However, stated simply, Hell is not a punishment prescribed by God, it is a self-inflicted punishement, a state chosen, not forced.

Kind of like in the movie with Robin Williams, What Dreams May Come. That somewhat explains it nicely.

- N
 
Yo fellow Fellows,

S - For the below read only- "The god of the Christians", no other god is implied.
This quote describing a direct action of the Christian Lord:

Exodus 12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

S - Fits in nicely with:

Quote mis-t-highs:
"P1: It is morally wrong to deliberately and mercilessly slaughter men, women, and children who are innocent of any serious wrongdoing."

S - A portion of the Christian Creed from:http://house-of-hope.net/faith/believe.html

What We Believe
Statement of Faith

THE BIBLE
1. Our only authority is the Bible.
2. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are inspired of God, without error, and complete.

S - So according to the Christian religion, the quote above from Exodus is without error.

Quote Jenyar:
"I think the whole argument is a wonderful, tragic and disturbing commentary on the way people read the Bible. I fail to see the objectivity he mentions."

S - How else do you read this divine, inerrant passage from Exodus above Jenyar? No amount of contemporary culture, history or apologetics can change the fact that the almighty god willingly smote the firstborn of Egypt. And it seems for some curious reason or other he chose to smite the firstborn cattle too. Whatever gods reasoning, the scale of slaughter is absolutely equitable to the recent Beslan school incident in Russia. Do you condone the behaviour of those responsible for the Russian incident? A deeper understanding of the conflict between Russia and Chechnya does in no way morally mitigate the slaughter.

Quote beyondtimeandspace:
"This argument against the Biblical deity is rather poor, since it is based upon a misguided belief in the reality of the actions of the Old Testament God; a belief that is only held by the misguided and short of sight."

S - Explain why my thinking is misguided brother? Throw me some spectacles here!

Quote beyondtimeandspace:
"However, stated simply, Hell is not a punishment prescribed by God, it is a self-inflicted punishement, a state chosen, not forced."

S - Explain the above in the light of:

From: http://house-of-hope.net/faith/believe.html

REDEMPTION
1. Before creation God knew man would choose disobedience.

Allcare.
 
beyondtimeandspace said:
Furthermore, if Christians believe that those actions that are said to be by God in the Old Testament, which pertain to objective immorality, then they believe something that knowledgeable Christians have never believed. Those stories were written from the perspective of humans, who believed such actions to be from God (which, in a VERY indirect sense, may be said to be). However, the realistic Christian would read most of such passages as revealing a certain rationale of humans; namely, that we use God as a means to justify bad actions.
When we recognize that it was people who waged wars, it's no use denying that God lead them into a territory where wars were inevitable. Simply saying they "only believed" God intended those actions only compunds the problem. There is an error in thinking here: that the Bible is trying to justify those atrocities. It doesn't: it simply tells us how God led His people into enemy territory, and gave them a country which they today, 3000 years later, still hold. The same story is repeated in other nations.

But we don't justify the means. We can't justify anything that conflicts with our morals today. And therein lies the problem: it's today's morals. And even by our so-called elevated morality we're not faring much better - if the Bible was still being written, would people agree with us 2000 years later? That's because the way we imagine things *should be* lies largely in our minds, and that's where arguments like the one above is not realistic.

Any argument that takes people out of the equation to condemns God's actions relies on so much assumptions about history, people and circumstances involved that it's indefensible. But likewise, any argument that takes God out of the equation, especially where He is explicitly involved will fail on the same assumption: that God wasn't involved. That Israel would have survived antagonizing the whole of the ancient world at the height of its power. Not only survived, but outlasted them 3000 years and counting. That's a huge assumption, because no nation in history has ever retained its identity in exile for longer than 100 years.

In the end, we have to acknowledge two things: 1) That God is not only what the Bible says at one particular point, and 2) That humanity isn't what it used to be 4000 years ago. A lot has happened since then, many things changed and many things remained. One thing is as true for us as it was for any man in history: this is your world, and these are your limits. Ignore God at your own risk.
 
stretched said:
For the below read only- "The god of the Christians", no other god is implied.
This quote describing a direct action of the Christian Lord:

Exodus 12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Fits in nicely with:
mis-t-highs said:
P1: It is morally wrong to deliberately and mercilessly slaughter men, women, and children who are innocent of any serious wrongdoing."
We have three assumptions here (tell me if you disagree):
1) Deliberately, which I take to mean: persisting in something when other options are available.
2) Mercilessly, which I take to mean: with no possible chance to escape or avert it.
3) Innocent of any wrongdoing: Innocense itself has never spared anyone from death. Who decides what is wrong and who's guilty of what, who carries out the judgment, and who bears the consequences?

In Exodus:
Israel was in slavery and subject to forced labour and oppression. Pharoah had 9 (nine) chances to avert disaster. Most of the plagues correlated with an Egyptian diety - each plague would have escalated Pharaohs humiliation. Before each plague Pharoah was warned. But he would not be humiliated by slaves, or by the Hebrew God, and didn't relent. The last plague struck to the heart of the incarnation of Ra: Pharoah himself. The firstborn were either worshipped or sacrificed to him. His firstborn son would have succeded him as god-king.

Now, none if these things would have been considered serious crimes if the following were true: 1) Israel had no right to freedom; 2) God didn't have the authority to grant it to them. You will remember that Pharaoh brought the 11th plague on himself: the destruction of his army. One thing he wasn't interested in was mercy, and yet Pharoah himself was spared. He had to live with the consequences of opposing God. His people was his responisibility, and the plagues were a consequence of his failure to think of their safety.

Another point to consider: the angel of death passed over the Israelites as well, it was only the blood of atonement that made it pass over them.

I guess the bottom line, if you want to take the argument seriously, is: do you belong to Israel or to Pharoah? Do you have reason to point a finger at God?
 
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What was a fight for territory, they interpreted as "doing God's will". What is a bruising of egos, some interpret as "fighting for the right religion". What is covering up one's weaknesses, some call "serving God".

These people are abusing God to excuse themselves and to ease their conscience.
And such doings, one certainly should oppose.
I find it absurd to blame God for the atrocities done in His name.
It is absurd, because "god" is clearly opposed to these things.
And that is the moral argument against theism.
God IS to blame for people thinking they need an excuse to fight over territory. God IS to blame for suppressing and altering the natural behaviour of man. And thus automatically god IS to blame for everything thats wrong with the world. That seems pretty immoral to me, tricking a simple shortsighted species into raping and destroying their home planet. Tricking rosa magika into believing human behaviour is "atrocious".
The guy's one sick fuck. Worst of all his secret weapon was suggesting "niceness", it's just so god damn sinister.
Theism is immoral because it's the act of worshipping this lunatic.
Those you disparrage, those who use god as an excuse to act like human beings, are obviously too pure in their hearts to be overpowered by his evil influence.
 
Dr Lou Natic said:
It is absurd, because "god" is clearly opposed to these things.
And that is the moral argument against theism.
God was opposed to divorce, and yet He gave laws regulating it. That was for the sake of people.

Tell me now, and answer me once and for all: Do you prefer to see complete intolerance of all actions that are against His will?
 
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