A few questions for the Christians...

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LostInThought7

Registered Senior Member
First, let me start by saying that I'm not trying to debunk your religion or ideas or whatever; I'm trying to find some answers and I want to hear your thoughts.

1> Almost every Christian I've met believes that the Bible is completely error free. If you think this, why? I've heard many people talk on this, but I've never heard anything that convinces me. And why does Paul get so much recognition? Everything he says is just his interpretation on what Jesus says, yet there are more Paulians than there are Christians, if you catch my meaning.

2> Isn't it possible that heaven and hell are symbolic? Heaven is paved with streets of gold; gold is a thing desired by man. Hell is a lake of fire; most humans hate the thought of being submersed in flames. Could they be symbolic of...the greater good? Once you die, you can no longer make a difference...those who follow all the laws (of the religion and stuff) will be called great in the kingdom of heaven...the kingdom of God is within you...

3> Prayer = reflective meditation? Maybe prayer's whole purpose is to get the pray-er to focus on what he really want's to focus his life on: "Forgive me of my sins, I know I've done bad things that I really shouldn't have done. Help me to be a better person..."

4> What is the "soul"? It seems to me that all that I am (my memories, feelings, ideas, thought-making processes, etc.), all my consciousness is contained within my brain, and once all that turns to dirt, "Brendan" will cease to exist. Could the soul just be the good energy that goes to the symbolic kingdom of heaven (the greater good)?

5> If I don't believe in the theology of the Christians, will I burn in hell for all eternity? I would like to belive in the concept of God, but in my search for proof, I have found that God is more likely a mixture of morality and reality than a conscious being. Will "God", if he is a supreme, conscious being, hold this against me? I really, really would like to know and be freinds with God if he is a thinking being, but I have found no proof of it.

It seems that in the Bible, after Jesus died, there was a group of people who were Christians, but did not believe in angels or heaven or hell. Paul said that they were full of crap and were going to burn in hell. Looking at Jesus' words, I don't see why.

Please remember, in your answers, that I do not belive in the inerrancy of the Bible.
 
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I suspect that inerrantists represent only a small minority of Christians, and that defense of inerrancy represents a very small minority of Christian scholarship.
 
<i><b>I've heard many people talk on this, but I've never heard anything that convinces me. And why does Paul get so much recognition? Everything he says is just his interpretation on what Jesus says, yet there are more Paulians than there are Christians, if you catch my meaning.</b></i>
There are no Paulians because the two are inextricably linked. You will find many quotes from Paul in the writings of Polycarp a disciple of John.

<i><b>
Could they be symbolic of...the greater good? Once you die, you can no longer make a difference...those who follow all the laws (of the religion and stuff) will be called great in the kingdom of heaven...the kingdom of God is within you...</b></i>
Comple seperation between God and man by man's own choice is very real.

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3> Prayer = reflective meditation? Maybe prayer's whole purpose is to get the pray-er to focus on what he really want's to focus his life on: "Forgive me of my sins, I know I've done bad things that I really shouldn't have done. Help me to be a better person..." </b></i>
Yes, this is one benefit to prayer.

<i><b>all my consciousness is contained within my brain, and once all that turns to dirt, "Brendan" will cease to exist. Could the soul just be the good energy that goes to the symbolic kingdom of heavn (the greater good)?</b></i>
I'm convinced that it is impossible for ordinary matter to feel pain for the simple reason that it is ordinary matter. Of course some would disagree with me....

<i><b>If I don't believe in the theology of the Christians, will I burn in hell for all eternity? I would like to belive in the concept of God, but in my search for proof, I have found that God is more likely a mixture of morality and reality than a conscious being. Will "God", if he is a supreme, conscious being, hold this against me? I really, really would like to know and be freinds with God if he is a thinking being, but I have found no proof of it.</b></i>
Are christians supposed to blackmail you to believe what they believe?

<i><b>It seems that in the Bible, after Jesus died, there was a group of people who were Christians, but did not believe in angels or heaven or hell. Paul said that they were full of crap and were going to burn in hell. Looking at Jesus' words, I don't see why.</b></i>
Can you referance the section. 1 Corintheans only says that if there is no afterlife then people would "live, drink and be merry for tommorow we die" This emphasizes that faith is based upon hope and without hope, there is no faith.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Yes, this is one benefit to prayer.
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One? What are the others? Can we convince God to change his perfect will? We pray that our sick grandmother is healed, and if she isn't, then it wasn't in God's will. Why, then, pray in the first place? Why not just let God's will play out? What he wants done will be done, anyway.

The Bible says that we shouldn't pray as the pagans do, who think that they will be heard because of their many words, because God already knows what we need before we even ask. (Matt 6:7-8)

Originally posted by okinrus
I'm convinced that it is impossible for ordinary matter to feel pain for the simple reason that it is ordinary matter. Of course some would disagree with me....
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Ordinary matter feel pain...? A chunk of rock does not feel pain, because it does not have nerves that tell a brain that the rock as a whole is in danger. I may have misunderstood your point.

Originally posted by okinrus
Can you referance the section. 1 Corintheans only says that if there is no afterlife then people would "live, drink and be merry for tommorow we die" This emphasizes that faith is based upon hope and without hope, there is no faith.
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I'll try and find it for you. I agree, most people wouldn't do good unless they were promised something really good (immortality) in return. There are those few, though, who feel a responsibility to do good without a threat of hell.

We should "lend without expecting to be repaid" and "if someone asks for our cloak, we should give him our tunic as well". Though we would suffer, it is good to love others like this. It is my current belief that the "hope" should not a selfish hope, but hope that someone's suffering will relieved.
 
<i><b>One? What are the others? Can we convince God to change his perfect will? We pray that our sick grandmother is healed, and if she isn't, then it wasn't in God's will. Why, then, pray in the first place? Why not just let God's will play out? What he wants done will be done, anyway. </b></i>
Some things are destined to happen and other things are not.

<i><b>
The Bible says that we shouldn't pray as the pagans do, who think that they will be heard because of their many words, because God already knows what we need before we even ask. (Matt 6:7-8)</b></i>
Yes, but it does not say that you should not pray to the father.

<i><b>
I'll try and find it for you. I agree, most people wouldn't do good unless they were promised something really good (immortality) in return. There are those few, though, who feel a responsibility to do good without a threat of hell. </b></i>
You don't understand. If you are unable to do good, you are already in hell. Since heaven is filled with goodness and love, only those who practice such in this earth will go there because they have chosen so.

<i><b>
Ordinary matter feel pain...? A chunk of rock does not feel pain, because it does not have nerves that tell a brain that the rock as a whole is in danger. I may have misunderstood your point.</b></i>
At some point though we have the brain sensing chemicals and thus feeling pain.
 
Originally posted by LostInThought7
The Bible says that we shouldn't pray as the pagans do, who think that they will be heard because of their many words, because God already knows what we need before we even ask. (Matt 6:7-8)
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M*W: I don't believe there is any wrong way to pray. If it's sincere and from the heart, it can't be wrong. God doesn't judge us on semantics. The most important thing to remember about prayer is to always ask for forgiveness for what you have done, and always forgive others for what they have done to you. This opens up the positive side of prayer to receive what you ask for. Without the forgiveness thing, nothing works. It's not what you say, and it's not how you say it. The whole thing in a nutshell is forgiveness.
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Ordinary matter feel pain...? A chunk of rock does not feel pain, because it does not have nerves that tell a brain that the rock as a whole is in danger. I may have misunderstood your point.
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M*W: An ordinary rock doesn't feel the same kind of pain we feel, but spiritually speaking, a rock is part of Mother Earth. Everything in Mother Earth has purpose and value. For example, the rock could be used to destroy something else when it could be used to build something. Positive & negative forces at work.
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okinrus, either i misunderstand what you meant, or you are wrong... "You don't understand. If you are unable to do good, you are already in hell. Since heaven is filled with goodness and love, only those who practice such in this earth will go there because they have chosen so."

***

the bible clearly says in Ephesians 2: (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. *not by works but by grace* any comment?
 
hey man

check out my thread under religion and it is called Just how powerful are words, oh and this is excelent
 
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"okinrus, either i misunderstand what you meant, or you are wrong..."

Or okinrus has an opinion of his own, a new opinion. Until you can prove the Bible to be flawless, I don't see how you can call okinrus wrong

quote:
"Some things are destined to happen and other things are not."

and the rest of the things are inbetween? I'm sorry, but I would disagree; why are some things destined and others not?


Concerning the semantics of prayer, I agree with MW. To an extent. I don't think there is a wrong way to pray. I was just saying that it seems like prayer is a man-made thing to help the masses be moral. I mean, if God already knows what we are going to say, why say it? The words themselves don't matter, but we are told to pray. I think that it has to do with re-aligning your mindset: reflective meditation.

What are your thoughts, is it possible?
 
the bible clearly says in Ephesians 2: (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. *not by works but by grace* any comment?
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Yes, we do <em>good</em> works by allowing God's grace to work inside us. This is why Jesus said that no one was good but God. But when asked how should man attain heaven, Jesus said only by God can man achieve. Clearly then good works are done through God's grace otherwise they would not be good.

and the rest of the things are inbetween? I'm sorry, but I would disagree; why are some things destined and others not?
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Well there was this one ancient egyptian writing where the man knew how he was to die. Either he was die by a crocodile, a dog, or drowning. After a complex series of interaction the man makes choice of how he was going to die but not if he was going to die.
 
I'm LDS *which we consider ourselves Christians* and I don't believe the Bible is error free. The Bible has been tampered with by the Babylonians and others, who have removed parts and pieces of it to fit their needs and also to put down confusion.
 
Originally posted by Davearchy
I'm LDS *which we consider ourselves Christians* and I don't believe the Bible is error free. The Bible has been tampered with by the Babylonians and others, who have removed parts and pieces of it to fit their needs and also to put down confusion.
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Dave, you are right about the Bible not being error free. The Bible was plagarized from the earlier Sumerian texts. There were a number of creation and flood stories long before the Pentateuch was written by Moses (who was an Egyptian Pharaoh). The Pentateuch reeks of Egyptian gods and customs. Sarai and Abram were both children of the same Pharaoh and different concubine mothers. They were Egyptians who belonged to the Hibiru tribe--later called Hebrews. Technically, Abraham was the first to totally submit to Allah. When back in the Pharaoh's palace, Sarai laid with the pharaoh and became pregnant with Isaac. Abraham took Isaac to raise as his own son. After Sarah died, Abraham married Hagar and had more children. Ishmael is Abraham's true son, Isaac is not.
 
LostInThought7
I will take you at your word and accept that you really are trying to find some answers. Here are a few you can try.

The laws that God gave to ancient Israel through Moses no longer apply. We don't have to burn bulls, sell daughters into slavery, avoid working on the Sabbath or any of the other things mentioned in the Old Testament, neither does God want us to do those things. Those laws were part of a covenant that God made with the nation of Israel, a covenant that was terminated at Pentecost, in the year 33.

We are now subject to the law of Christ. Jesus said that the whole law hangs on two commandments: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind ... You shall love your neighbor as yourself" - Matthew 22:35-40. The law of Christ is not set out in the form of a comprehensive code but the new testament does state many commands and decrees that we are obliged to obey.

The 10 commandments were a basic part of the law that God gave to Israel. Those commandments had equal force with about 600 other laws that were equally binding on Israelites. Like all the other laws the 10 commandments were part of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel. Indeed the 10 commandments were referred to as "the tablets of the covenant" (Deuteronomy 9:9). That is why the ark in which the tablets were kept was called "the ark of the covenant" (Joshua 3:3; Hebrews 9:4).

We are not subject to the 10 commandments or the other laws that God gave to Israel any longer. But that is not to say that the ten commandments and the old laws have no relevance whatsoever. The 10 commandments and the rest of the Mosaic law reflect God's attitude towards things and therefore should be studied, but they do not have the force of a legal code that we are bound to follow. The old laws had "a shadow of the good things to come" (Hebrews 10:1) meaning they would naturally lead to and reflect the law of Christ. The 10 commandments dealt with man's relationship to God and man's relationship with his brothers. When Jesus was asked which is the greatest commandment in the law, his answer that I have set out above epitomized the 10 commandments.
 
I'm LDS *which we consider ourselves Christians* and I don't believe the Bible is error free. The Bible has been tampered with by the Babylonians and others, who have removed parts and pieces of it to fit their needs and also to put down confusion.
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Iteresting, I know that the offical claim was "bible and book of mormon insofar as they are translated correctly." Is this error free or theologically error free? What parts were added by the Babylonians?
 
A few questions for the Christians

I read your various comments, and chose to respond as follows.

(1) EPHESIANS, 2: 8 & 9 "'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(2) "Yes, we do good works by allowing God's grace to work inside us. This is why Jesus said that no one was good but God. But when asked how should man attain heaven, Jesus said only by God can man achieve. Clearly then good works are done through God's grace otherwise they would not be good."
[No chapter or verse given.]

(3) GALATIANS 3: 6 & 7, "Even as Abraham beliefed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."

(AS TO FORGIVENESS) I have have found no better example than this: "Forgive them, "Father,"for they know not what they do." LUKE 23: 34.

... The above quote are words attributed to Jesus near the time of his crucifixion. Of course, you may contend that the entire Bible is -a joke on "so-called Christians-, and I will not argue with that." Yet, the truth is, this forgiveness -thing can work for you. Once once those words became mine, I knew that I would be wise to reflect on my own position. Do I alway exercise caution, and do I always use enough sense and compassion to "know what I am doing." I am speaking of "knowing, in the educated, long-term and connected sense, of course, and of a passion conceived in love, because just as every man, and everything man philosophies is flawed, so are those who call themselves Christian, -or not!
 
Laser Eyes, I must say, I am very disturbed by number of times you say "...we are obliged to obey..." and "We are now subject to..." Why? Why must we obey these things? For fear of hell? I already know your answer, but still...

Quote: EPHESIANS, 2: 8 & 9 "'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Didn't Paul write this?

Quote: This is why Jesus said that no one was good but God.

Yeah, God is good. But God = Good?
I realize that the Bible talks about these stories where God is a conscious being, but, to me, it seems that these stories are either symbolic to provide moral guidance (humans have been doing this for a while: "and the moral of the story is...") or just stories that humans wrote for whatever reason (humans have been writing stories about gods and spirits and stuff for quite a while).

Quote: But when asked how should man attain heaven, Jesus said only by God can man achieve.

heaven = greater good, God = good
You can only only get to heaven where God is by obeying the will of God. God *is* pure love and goodness, you know.

Quote: We are now subject to the law of Christ. Jesus said that the whole law hangs on two commandments: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind ... You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

Yes, if you love Good with ... I mean, Jesus did speak in parables.

Really, thank you everyone who has posted. I find that this is an easy way to test theories for flaws (present them to the forums and have others pick 'em apart). I am trying to pound out the flaws in this theory and see if it is a valid explaination of Jesus' message.
 
I don't take the Bible literally. It is full of metaphores. THere was a discovery special that showed how certain things in the Bible are plausible. Like hoew an earthquake parted the ocean and how people can really live 900 years... I'll try to find the article.
 
I don't take the Bible literally. It is full of metaphores. THere was a discovery special that showed how certain things in the Bible are plausible. Like hoew an earthquake parted the ocean and how people can really live 900 years... I'll try to find the article.
 
TO, I like salt;

After being on this, I can see why you folks do not use your real names, but yours is really different!

I am responding to the following:

"I don't take the Bible literally. It is full of metaphores. THere was a discovery special that showed how certain things in the Bible are plausible. Like hoew an earthquake parted the ocean and how people can really live 900 years... I'll try to find the article."

More than once I too have seen some of the happenings in the Old Testament substantiated with scientific findings and so forth, and then passed on via the Discovery Channel, or others. Also, at one time I knew about the 900-year lifespan explanation, but I have forgotten. Although I do not concern myself much with trying to prove things, it would be interesting to know.
:)
 
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