A Case for the Empire

[iam]

Clockwood:

Agreed. To say that the Jedi didn't force the galaxy to conform to their wants and needs would be like saying that the Medici family didn't run Florence.

How did they force anyone? They chose to live by their own codes. They just defended themselves and others who prefer democracy. They could care less what the sith did if it weren't for the fact it would make life hell for them and many who would not want to be under their dictatorship. The sith don't respect anyone's code of life but their own and would crush and enslave them.

 

[Nasor]

I feel that both factions commit acts of good and evil. However, the Sith are more honest about their dogma than the Jedi. I love the bit in Episode 3 where Anakin told Palpatine that the Sith are selfish, and think only of themselves. Instead of denying this obvious truth (who isn't selfish to some degree?), Palpatine merely replied 'And the Jedi don't (think of themselves)?' It could be said that all actions are motivated by greed and selfishness.

This is absurd. Please give a few examples of "evil" acts committed by the jedi that would even begin to compare with:

1. Engineering a galaxy-wide civil war for the sake of your own personal power grab.
2. Destroying an entire populated planet simply to scare people into compliance.

In fact, please list any evil acts committed by the jedi. You keep talking as if the jedi were oppressing people and doing bad things, but can you list any specific examples other than Anikan (you know, the guy who was corrupted by a sith and eventually became one himself...the guy who the entire jedi council didn't think should be trained in the first place...)? When did the jedi torture people? When did they murder people?

 

[seekeroftheway]

Self defense is implied in the code, so cases like Windu decapitating Jango Fett don't count. Nor does the attempted "murder" of Palpatine, they attempted to arrest him. He attacked them, they defended themselves. Besides, the Jedi had very good reason to quell any sith presence, the mere mentioning of sith inspires fear in the bravest people.

 

[Hapsburg]

1. Engineering a galaxy-wide civil war for the sake of your own personal power grab.

Isn't that kinda what they did? You know, with the GCW?

 

[mountainhare]

Nasor:

This is absurd.

If by 'this' you mean 'you', then yes, 'this' is absurd.

1. Engineering a galaxy-wide civil war for the sake of your own personal power grab.

The Sith didn't 'engineer' diddly squat.

And the Jedi also participated in the Civil War. They were responsible for many deaths.

2. Destroying an entire populated planet simply to scare people into compliance.

Ummm no, just no. In Episode 4, Alderaan was destroyed because that was where the rebels were hiding.

In fact, please list any evil acts committed by the jedi.

- Supporting slavery (Clone Wars).
- Killing unarmed prisoners (Mace with Palpatine). This also constituted as treason.
- Stealing children from their parents, and then brainwashing them.
- Oppressing followers of other religions (the Sith).

 

[Hapsburg]

Add to that the rebel terrrorist actions, destroying several military bases and civilian towns, killing innocent imperial civilian as well as imperial military personnel. AND the destruction of the second death star, when it was being built. Who was building it? Not military troops, they garrison things like that. It was being built by private contractors, civilian construction workers, civilian plumbers (troopa gotta poopa sometimes in space, right?), etc. The rebels heartlessly obliterate that, slaughtering thousands if not millions of innocent civilian workers. Plus, the endor holocaust, the result of the DS2 debris crashing into endor's forest moon, causing the near-extinction of the ewok species. Not only are the rebels terrorists and war criminals, but then they commit genocide (albeit unintentional, but it's still genocide).

 

[The Devil Inside]

someone has seen "Clerks" too many times.

 

[Hapsburg]

No, just once, but it was, like, two hourse ago, so...

 

[seekeroftheway]

Nasor:


If by 'this' you mean 'you', then yes, 'this' is absurd.


The Sith didn't 'engineer' diddly squat.

And the Jedi also participated in the Civil War. They were responsible for many deaths.


Ummm no, just no. In Episode 4, Alderaan was destroyed because that was where the rebels were hiding.


- Supporting slavery (Clone Wars).
- Killing unarmed prisoners (Mace with Palpatine). This also constituted as treason.
- Stealing children from their parents, and then brainwashing them.
- Oppressing followers of other religions (the Sith).

The rebels weren't hiding on Alderaan, by the way. They were hiding on Yavin. Alderaan was just heavily populated and would set a good example to other systems, Tarkin said himself that fear will keep the systems in line.

Slavery? What slavery?

Mace and Palpatine is totally out of context, They came and tried a civil arrest, which was within their power, for crimes against the Republic, including the warranting of the invasion of a member planet of the republic and manipulation of the senate. HE attacked THEM, and THEY defended themselves.

THey don't steal children. The parents willingly give the children away, because the jedi fight against oppression and evil and for the good of the people.

The sith are an apocalyptic cult, and they only exist for their own gain, the oppression of manipulation of others, and they are overall a detriment on free society. That's why the Jedi combat them, they seek to destroy.

 

[Nasor]

The Sith didn't 'engineer' diddly squat.

Are you kidding? The movies make it clear that Palpatine and his lacky Duku were behind the clone wars. He's the one who convinced the seperatists to rebel in the first place, and Palpatine/Duku were contatnly giving orders to ther seperatist leaders. Palpatine deliberatly caused the separatist rebellion, then used it as an excuse to keep giving himself more and more "executive powers" as he built up a military that answered only to him.

Ummm no, just no. In Episode 4, Alderaan was destroyed because that was where the rebels were hiding.

Once again, you are simply making things up without any support from the movies. The Imperials threaten to blow up Alderaan in order to force Leia to give them the location of the rebel base. When she tells them the rebels are on Dantoien, they blow up Alderaan anyway because Dantoien is too small and far away to be an "effective demonstration" of the deathstar's firepower.

- Supporting slavery (Clone Wars).

I don't recall any points in the movies where the clones were forced to fight.

- Killing unarmed prisoners (Mace with Palpatine). This also constituted as treason.

A powerful sith lord is never 'unarmed', as was demonstrated with Palpatine fried Mace with force lightening right before he fell out the window. And if you really think that it would have been wrong from Mace to kill Palpatine, I think perhaps you need to readjust your moral compass.

- Stealing children from their parents, and then brainwashing them.

What's that? The sound of you making up more things that never happened in the movies? When, in any of the movies, do you see the Jedi stealing children from their parents and brainwashing them? You appear to be assuming that because the Jedi start training as children, then they must all have been stolen and brainwashed. There is absolutely no evidence to support this.

- Oppressing followers of other religions (the Sith).

The jedi only seem to be "oppressing" the sith in the same way that the police "oppress" serial killers.

 

[Nasor]

Plus, the endor holocaust, the result of the DS2 debris crashing into endor's forest moon, causing the near-extinction of the ewok species. Not only are the rebels terrorists and war criminals, but then they commit genocide (albeit unintentional, but it's still genocide).

Umm...weren't the rebels all partying on Endor at the end of the movie? There didn't seem to be a holocaust going on.

 

[fetus_fajitas]

I'm leaning towards The Empire on this one, but even so they are still pretty evil.

Anakin murdered the Younglings, in cold blood because he was driven by Hatred and his own flawed opinion of The Jedi.

You all seem to use Self Defense as an argument for everything, but in this case, Anakin provoked them...And the same goes for many other situations if you really look.

But as for the destruciton of Alderaan i think they had a fair reason. Princess Leia is hardly trustworthy and seeing as she's a key member of the rebellion, and the princess of Alderaan it's only reasonable to assume that it could be a likely location for the Rebel Base

 

[Nasor]

But as for the destruciton of Alderaan i think they had a fair reason. Princess Leia is hardly trustworthy and seeing as she's a key member of the rebellion, and the princess of Alderaan it's only reasonable to assume that it could be a likely location for the Rebel Base

I get the impression that most of the people here who are arguing for the Empire saw the movies a while ago and basically remember the story, but don't actually remember the specifics of what happened. At least, that's the only thing I can think of to explain why people keep inventing things that never happened in the movies.

VADER: Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will be
some time before we can extract any information from her.

An Imperial Officer interrupts the meeting.

IMPERIAL OFFICER: The final check-out is complete. All systems are
operational. What course shall we set?

TARKIN: Perhaps she would respond to an alternative form of
persuasion.

VADER: What do you mean?

TARKIN: I think it is time we demonstrate the full power of this
station. (to soldier) Set your course for Princess Leia's home planet
of Alderaan.
...
EXTERIOR: DEATH STAR.

Alderaan looms behind the Death Star battlestation.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- CONTROL ROOM.

Admiral Motti enters the quiet control room and bows before
Governor Tarkin, who stands before the huge wall screen
displaying a small green planet.

MOTTI: We've entered the Alderaan system.

Vader and two stormtroopers enter with Princess Leia. Her
hands are bound.

TARKIN: Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.

LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems
will slip through your fingers.

TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station. In a way,
you have determined the choice of the planet that'll be destroyed
first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the
Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power...
on your home planet of Alderaan.

LEIA: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't
possibly...

TARKIN: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name
the system!

Tarkin waves menacingly toward Leia.

TARKIN: I grow tired of asking this. So it'll be the last time. Where
is the Rebel base?

Leia overhears an intercom voice announcing the approach to
Alderaan.

LEIA: (softly) Dantooine.

Leia lowers her head.

LEIA: They're on Dantooine.

TARKIN: There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. (addressing
Motti) Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready.

LEIA: What?

TARKIN: You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an
effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel
friends soon enough.

LEIA: No!

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- BLAST CHAMBER.

VADER: Commence primary ignition.

Aren't online scripts wonderful? Isn't it amazing what you can learn when you pay attention to what actually happened in the movies?

 

[seekeroftheway]

I get the impression that most of the people here who are arguing for the Empire saw the movies a while ago and basically remember the story, but don't actually remember the specifics of what happened. At least, that's the only thing I can think of to explain why people keep inventing things that never happened in the movies.


Aren't online scripts wonderful? Isn't it amazing what you can learn when you pay attention to what actually happened in the movies?

Bear in mind, I'm on the side of the jedi, but I have a few discrepancies with that script...A: Alderaan was blue, not green. B: It's Grand Moff Tarkin, not Governor Tarkin. C: Vader did not give the order to "commence primary ignition.", that order was given by an imperial officer.

 

[seekeroftheway]

I'm leaning towards The Empire on this one, but even so they are still pretty evil.

Anakin murdered the Younglings, in cold blood because he was driven by Hatred and his own flawed opinion of The Jedi.

You all seem to use Self Defense as an argument for everything, but in this case, Anakin provoked them...And the same goes for many other situations if you really look.

But as for the destruciton of Alderaan i think they had a fair reason. Princess Leia is hardly trustworthy and seeing as she's a key member of the rebellion, and the princess of Alderaan it's only reasonable to assume that it could be a likely location for the Rebel Base

You see, when he provoked the children and other jedi, he had forsaken his Jedi Standing and had already become Lord Vader.

 

[Nasor]

Bear in mind, I'm on the side of the jedi, but I have a few discrepancies with that script...A: Alderaan was blue, not green. B: It's Grand Moff Tarkin, not Governor Tarkin. C: Vader did not give the order to "commence primary ignition.", that order was given by an imperial officer.

Actually that's true, often there are slight discrepancies between the scripts and what actually happens in the movies...but in this case the essential dialog is accurate. Tarkin's statement of "You would prefer another target? A military target?" and "Not after we demonstrate the power of this station...Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration." clearly shows that the Imperials didn't have any military reason for destroying Alderaan; it was intended to scare the other systems in obedience.

 

[seekeroftheway]

If you think about it, though, that is kinda a military reason designed to suppress any resistance with fear of this massive, indestructible, all powerful battlestation. Plus, the deathstar was designed and built in the maw installation by sheltered scientists like Qwi Xux, who seriously thought that the empire was using the deathstar for terraformation, same with all the other war time atrocities that were created there, the scientists thought they were designing a tool of creation, not a WMD.

 

[mountainhare]

seekeroftheway:

The rebels weren't hiding on Alderaan, by the way.

Um, yes they were.

Princess Leia and co. were travelling back to Alderaan to deliver the plans of the Death Star to her father and the rebellion. If they aren't rebels, then who is?!

Quite simply, the Sith put two and two together. Princess Leia was travelling back to Alderaan with the Death Star plans, along with her crew. Her homeworld is Alderaan. In fact, she's the princess of that homeworld, and is in the perfect position to shelter and fund a rebellion.

But hey, Leia said it was a peaceful planet, so it must have been, right? After all, Leia never lied to the Empire. "I'm just on a diplomatic mission!"

A powerful sith lord is never 'unarmed', as was demonstrated with Palpatine fried Mace with force lightening right before he fell out the window.

Mace had a lightsabre at Sidious's neck. He also had one of the most powerful Jedi as a backup (Anakin). He could quite easily have arrested Sidious, and you know it.

Your childish argument about force lightning is equivalent to claiming that a martial artist is not 'unarmed', hence you have a right to gun him down.

I'm guessing that you support Israeli soldiers gunning down Palestinian kids who throw stones at tanks as well.

And if you really think that it would have been wrong from Mace to kill Palpatine, I think perhaps you need to readjust your moral compass.

Yeah, who would think that it's wrong to kill an unarmed man, instead of letting him stand trial?

Your arguments are morally bankrupt. Typical Jedi hypocrisy.

The movies make it clear that Palpatine and his lacky Duku were behind the clone wars. He's the one who convinced the seperatists to rebel in the first place, and Palpatine/Duku were contatnly giving orders to ther seperatist leaders. Palpatine deliberatly caused the separatist rebellion, then used it as an excuse to keep giving himself more and more "executive powers" as he built up a military that answered only to him.

Yeah yeah. The Separatists, the Old Republic, the Jedi and Anakin had no free will. It was all Palpatine's fault! He used his evil mind powers to make them do all that nasty stuff!
IDIOT!!!

 

[Nasor]

seekeroftheway:

Um, yes they were.

Princess Leia and co. were travelling back to Alderaan to deliver the plans of the Death Star to her father and the rebellion. If they aren't rebels, then who is?!

Your argument is belied by Tarkin's own statements. He clearly says that he knows Alderaan isn't a military target, but that he is going to destroy it anyway because he wants to terrorize the other systems in compliance. You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with the movie's script here.

I'm guessing that you support Israeli soldiers gunning down Palestinian kids who throw stones at tanks as well.

Yes. Since I think it would have been okay for Mace to kill Palpatine, I support killing children with tanks. The insightfulness of your arguments overwhelms us all

Yeah yeah. The Separatists, the Old Republic, the Jedi and Anakin had no free will. It was all Palpatine's fault! He used his evil mind powers to make them do all that nasty stuff!

I never said that they had no free will. I said that the Sith engineered the separatist rebellion. I don't see how you can argue with that, since according to the movies the sith were the leaders of the separatists!. You remember the scene in Attack of the Clones where Duku has gathered the opposition senators and is convincing them to join together, telling them how undefeatable they would be if they combine their forces?

 

[seekeroftheway]

seekeroftheway:

Um, yes they were.

Princess Leia and co. were travelling back to Alderaan to deliver the plans of the Death Star to her father and the rebellion. If they aren't rebels, then who is?!

Quite simply, the Sith put two and two together. Princess Leia was travelling back to Alderaan with the Death Star plans, along with her crew. Her homeworld is Alderaan. In fact, she's the princess of that homeworld, and is in the perfect position to shelter and fund a rebellion.

But hey, Leia said it was a peaceful planet, so it must have been, right? After all, Leia never lied to the Empire. "I'm just on a diplomatic mission!"


Mace had a lightsabre at Sidious's neck. He also had one of the most powerful Jedi as a backup (Anakin). He could quite easily have arrested Sidious, and you know it.

Your childish argument about force lightning is equivalent to claiming that a martial artist is not 'unarmed', hence you have a right to gun him down.

I'm guessing that you support Israeli soldiers gunning down Palestinian kids who throw stones at tanks as well.


Yeah, who would think that it's wrong to kill an unarmed man, instead of letting him stand trial?

Your arguments are morally bankrupt. Typical Jedi hypocrisy.


Yeah yeah. The Separatists, the Old Republic, the Jedi and Anakin had no free will. It was all Palpatine's fault! He used his evil mind powers to make them do all that nasty stuff!
IDIOT!!!

Um, no, they weren't. Her father was trying to get the data tapes to the rebels, the actual rebel base is on Yavin IV, not Alderaan.

Anakin was on Sidius' side, moron.


You understand, there's this little thing called POLITICS. And it totally fucks up everything. Dead serious, Palpatine did brainwash anakin, but starting the clone wars and the seperatist rebellion was all politics.


So Idiot yourself.