A Case for the Empire
- Thread starter Hapsburg
- Start date
i would compare palpatine to george bush in 50 years, if he were to remain president...
nuking folks for no real reason, a vice president with choke-through-the-tv powers.....
oh wait, i think i saw dick cheney do that on "meet the press"!
nuking folks for no real reason, a vice president with choke-through-the-tv powers.....
oh wait, i think i saw dick cheney do that on "meet the press"!
mountainhare said:
PHP:
[QUOTE][INDENT]
It was Palpatine not the Jedi Counsel that knew that Anakin had massacred the Tuskens.
Parents could to refuse to give their children to te Jedi.
"They would not refuse the Sith Army. They would have no choice." Lord Tyranus
The laws of the Republic were passed by the Senate not the Jedi.
Yoda does realize that the Jedi had made mistakes under his leadership. That he had stopped the order from changing with the times.
Your liking for the efficiency of the Empire is akin to pointing out that Mussolini made the trains run on time.mars13 said:
What's that smell? Oh, it's you...
iam said:
Totally agreeing with that. You'll notice that the jedi code specifically states "There is no chaos, there is serenity", therein, don't fight. Jedi Master Mace windu quoted "The Jedi are Keepers of the peace, not soldiers". The Jedi were essentially forced into war by the republic and the senate for their skills. Palpatine organized the capture of Obi Wan which led to the capture of Anakin, both in Ep. II. The Jedi sent pretty much everyone to save their friends, not to wage war, but war was waged upon them, and the Jedi were forced to defend themselves.
The Jedi did not attempt to kill palpatine because he was sith, they attempted to ARREST Palpatine because they KNEW that he had been the mastermind behind the war and the blockade of Naboo. They knew he was the master of Darth Maul, who was quite obviously evil(he was bred from birth to be a killing machine, and that's exactly the purpose he served).
Lastly, Overall, I have to say that between the Republic and The Empire, I'd have to pick the Yuuzhan Vong. They're a warrior culture, they don't squabble over opinions or bureaucracy, the strong survive and the weak serve. There is no room for corruption.
candy:
Also note that Padme knew that Anakin slaughtered the Tusken women and children, yet she never brought him to justice. Corruption in the Senate...
And the Jedi were using force of a different kind. Look at Anakin. 'Either become a Jedi, or live a life of slavery.' Qui-Gon wouldn't have freed Anakin if he didn't think that he would become a good Jedi.
Qui-Gon knew, and most likely Yoda knew. If he didn't, he's a tool for not investigating the actions of one of his Jedi on Tatooine. He suspects a massacre, but conveniently decides not to investigate. Wow, these Jedi really do keep a short leash on their members...
Also note that Padme knew that Anakin slaughtered the Tusken women and children, yet she never brought him to justice. Corruption in the Senate...
Which doesn't change the fact that the Jedi used their higher living standards to blackmail parents into giving them their children. And then, the Jedi refused these children the right to see their parents. Instead, they brainwashed them in an outdated religious code.
Ahh, but I'm not arguing that the Sith are a force of good. I'm merely pointing out that the Jedi weren't saints.
And the Jedi were using force of a different kind. Look at Anakin. 'Either become a Jedi, or live a life of slavery.' Qui-Gon wouldn't have freed Anakin if he didn't think that he would become a good Jedi.
The Jedi loved to interfere in the Senate. Who was it who tried to assassinate the elected representative of the people?
Yes, Mussolini was a rather efficient leader. Your point?
However, I am. Sith philosophy is centred on emotion. Instead of binding yourself to servitude and chastity, be free in your actions and thought. Release your anger, hate, love, pain, happiness. The Jedi try to suppress all of these and force thier dogma on young people. Face it: the Sith are the real good guys of Star Wars.mountainhare said:
Hapsburg:
I don't agree that the Sith were a force of pure good. They engaged in many acts of (rational) cruelty and tyranny, although all of these actions had fair motives. Needless to say, the galaxy is better under the rule of the Sith, than the decadent Jedi.
Hapsburgs, have you played "Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2"? The two games are very insightful. They explore the flaws in both the Sith and Jedi ideologies.
I feel that both factions commit acts of good and evil. However, the Sith are more honest about their dogma than the Jedi. I love the bit in Episode 3 where Anakin told Palpatine that the Sith are selfish, and think only of themselves. Instead of denying this obvious truth (who isn't selfish to some degree?), Palpatine merely replied 'And the Jedi don't (think of themselves)?' It could be said that all actions are motivated by greed and selfishness.
I don't agree that the Sith were a force of pure good. They engaged in many acts of (rational) cruelty and tyranny, although all of these actions had fair motives. Needless to say, the galaxy is better under the rule of the Sith, than the decadent Jedi.
Hapsburgs, have you played "Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2"? The two games are very insightful. They explore the flaws in both the Sith and Jedi ideologies.
Hapsburg said:
The sith force their own dogma much more forcefully. If a sith released its anger on you or beat you to a pulp, it would be justified according to you. The sith is based on emotion minus responsibility or ethics. They are about greed and power minus the delicate balance of humanity. why? Because they could care less because it requires more inner responsibility than they want to bear and don't include it in their agenda. The sith would be ones to enslave or use or mistreat anyone they deemed fit for use. This is not a force for good or the good guys. Its easy to be sithlike, base emotions give free reign, no responsiblity and disrespects higher emotions. Jedi respect higher emotions and the deeper meaning of life and try to preserve it, sith would destroy or subjugate it. They are what they are. So your point is moot.
Last edited:
Mountainhare,
I assume that you meant that Obi-Wan knew what Anakin had done to the people who murdered his Mother since Qui-Gon was dead. Tatooine was in the Outer-Rim not part of the Republic. Qui-Gon's Republic credits were not accepted on Tatooine which is why the race was their only option to get the parts they needed. Padme was protecting the man she loved by not revealing his "crime of passion". Tatooine did not have much in the way of a legal system.
Qui-Gon did try to bargain for both Shmi and Anakin. Watto would only do the bet for one. Anakin was rejected by the Jedi Council as too old. Obi-Wan used a technicality to train Anakin as a Jedi.
Mussolini was efficient but brutally totalitarian. The efficiency was the result of harsh treatment of everyone who did not agree with the policies of the government. The right to make your own choices is not as efficient but some of us do not want to be told how to live our lives as long as we are not harming others.
I assume that you meant that Obi-Wan knew what Anakin had done to the people who murdered his Mother since Qui-Gon was dead. Tatooine was in the Outer-Rim not part of the Republic. Qui-Gon's Republic credits were not accepted on Tatooine which is why the race was their only option to get the parts they needed. Padme was protecting the man she loved by not revealing his "crime of passion". Tatooine did not have much in the way of a legal system.
Qui-Gon did try to bargain for both Shmi and Anakin. Watto would only do the bet for one. Anakin was rejected by the Jedi Council as too old. Obi-Wan used a technicality to train Anakin as a Jedi.
Mussolini was efficient but brutally totalitarian. The efficiency was the result of harsh treatment of everyone who did not agree with the policies of the government. The right to make your own choices is not as efficient but some of us do not want to be told how to live our lives as long as we are not harming others.
mountainhare said:
Ah, but the jedi would never try to rule the galaxy. The Sith have tried to rule it many times over. The Jedi try to preserve life, while the sith seek to destroy it in their mad lust for greater power which does, in the end, destroy every single one of them. If anyone's played KOTOR 1, look at ajunta pall in his tomb, who can't even remember his own name, because his body is gone and his spirit is bound to the world BY THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE, and he is miserable because of it. Using the dark side and falling to the dark side are two different things, using the dark side is simply using a dark side power (IE draining life or lightning), whereas falling to the dark side is succumbing to the greed and hatred and lust for power that must exist in all of us. Feeding these emotions with the power of the dark side causes them to consume us, which leads to our destruction.
And again you are also wrong, the jedi do not quell emotions like love, they simply do not embrace them, as it is an attachment that can lead to anger, which is bad.
candy said:
No, the jedi never gave any executive orders outside of their own circle (with certain exceptions, of course, they do have a job to do). They never directed any militaristic activity until the clone wars when it was forced upon them. The majority of Jedi, in usual circumstances, stayed at the temple, meditated, trained, and saw the universe and the force through the astral plane. I hardly see how they ever "ran" the galaxy. They just commanded respect (and fear in certain circles).
Clockwood:
Agreed. To say that the Jedi didn't force the galaxy to conform to their wants and needs would be like saying that the Medici family didn't run Florence.