A Case for the Empire

Ha, that was a good read. I've always said the Empire were good. No-one ever believed me but that article raises some good points. Kinda puts the whole thing into context, I found myself comparing some of the things said in there with todays world i.e. Princess Leia being an insurgent desperately pleaing for some mercy.

If I had any doubts before, they've been serverly quashed. The Empire for teh win!! Out of the Republic or Empire, the Empire was by far the best way to run that galaxy. What's that saying? Many chefs ruin the broth.
 
The thing is, a republic simply cannot rule effectively over such a wide expanse. A totalitarian dictatorship, however, can. Same thing with the Roman Empire. The Republic couldn't rule well outside of the Italian peninsula. The Senate just became to corrupt. Caesar, and later Augustus, knew what had to be done to save the nation, and govern it all without it collapsing. Same thing with the Empire.
Hail Palpatine.
 
And with regional governors keeping an eye on local issues (while secretly lining their own pockets) helps deligate the needs of each system. One leader cannot oversee every single detail that goes past him, this might be the downside of such a way to run a galaxy
 
The Ewoks victory only happened because of bad storytelling on behalf of Lucas.
 
Hapsburg said:
The thing is, a republic simply cannot rule effectively over such a wide expanse. A totalitarian dictatorship, however, can.

There is zero evidence that the empire was doing a better job of ruling than the republic did. However, it does not appear that the old republic had to resort to blowing up planets simply to terrify everyone into compliance. They also didn’t appear to torture people (Han in ESB) or murder people (Luke’s adoptive parents in ANH).

There does not appear to be any reason to believe that the empire was better than the republic, and plenty of reasons why it was much worse.
 
Ever seen 'TROOPS'? Luke's adopted parents were killed because they broke the law :D
 
Nasor:Actually, the Republic was always fighting some nasty and prolonged war somewhere. They had piracy and infighting (often with heavy weaponry) along with general corruption and oppression on a local level everywhere you looked. Its just that, as a galactic whole, they turned a blind eye to it all. I won't say that the Empire was in any way good but I will also not claim that the Republic was in any way better.
 
Hapsburg:
This guy, John Last, makes a very convincing argument for the Galactic Empire of Palpatine. I think it makes pretty damn good sense:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...01/248ipzbt.asp
Discuss.
I've read that article before, and as you point out, it makes perfect sense. I've often argued in favour of the Empire, and even Palpatine's actions in Episode 3, to met with scorn from pro-Jedi, pro Old Republic morons. "OMFG, HES IN TEH DARK SIDE, SO HE MUSS BE EBIL!"

Quite simply, the Empire is the perfect example of a totalitarian dictatorship which has sacrificed some civil liberties in favour of stability, law and order, productively and unity. It was exactly what the galaxy needed at the time. The Republic was DOOMED.
Anyone who knows Star Wars history that the Old Republic had been in decline for a thousand years. Corruption, multiple corporations manipulating the result of votes and even attacking planets, a general lack of law and order, one enemy after another whipping the Republic's ass. The Republic is a mirror image of the Byzantine Empire. Constantly whooped down by its neighbours, it was 'the sick man of the galaxy'. It needed replacement. Is the Empire an ideal government? Perhaps not. But it sure was a damn sight better than the Old Republic.

Oh, and individuals who feel that the Empire's tactics to maintain order were heavy handed... do a little research on the methods which the Old Republic used against particular planets that it wanted to join them. The Old Republic at many times acted like the Yankees. Join us or be decimated. Independance is bad.

In fact, we observe this attitude in the 2nd Episode. The Separatists wish to secede and leave the Republic. The Old Republic is basically clamouring for war, with only Padme managing to win support, and ensure that cooler heads to prevail. "We must negotiate instead of attacking someone who wants to exercise their god given right to regain their independence." Good choice.

Then the Republic finds out that the Separatists are building an army, and there is outrage. "OMFG, THE SEPERATISTS ARE BUILDING AN ARMY!". Yeah, fancy that. A group which you have threatened war against are building an army in order to protect themselves, and give themselves some leverage so that they can break away from the Republic. The outrage of the Republic is equivalent to Israel feeling outrage over Palestinian groups such as Hamas arming themselves!

And then, to seal the deal, the Jedi attack Palpatine. Why? Because... because... because... he's a Sith! And we don't like the evil Sith. :rolleyes:
So fucking what? He was elected by the people. You can't claim to support the Republic, and then turn around and violate its democratic institutions. "We aren't happy with the majority's choice, so we are going to storm into the candidate's home armed, attempt to arrest him (despite not having the authority to do so), and when he refuses to go quietly, murder him". Why didn't the Jedi just inform the people that Palpatine was a Sith, and let them decide if they wanted a Sith in power? Oh wait, people were sick of the Jedi, who hid in behind their stones walls and done jack shit to help the galaxy.

Palpatine killed the Jedi. So? Those who followed the religious ideals of the Sith were persecuted by the Jedi for god knows how long. The mere fact that Palpatine followed the religious ideals of the Sith made him a prime target of the Jedi. Mace tried to slaughter Palpatine in cold blood. So Palpatine struck back against the persecutors of the Sith. He struck back against the true enemies of the Republic. And he whipped ass. So stop bitching.

Here's an interesting question. What would have happened if Mace and his lackeys had have marched into Palpatine's, sat down, and said
"Listen, we know you're a Sith, and we don't give a shit. We have our beliefs, you have your beliefs, and we won't persecute you merely because your beliefs are dis-similar from ours. You have the right to practice the religious beliefs of the Sith, just like the Jedi have the right to practice their own religious beliefs. But remember, you are bound by the law, and you are ultimately accountable to the people. So you'd better not fuck up the galaxy, or you might be in for a short reign."

No doubt, Palpatine would have been quite shocked at first. It is indeed a rarity for the Jedi to tolerate alternative view points. He would then have realized that perhaps the Jedi WEREN'T a threat, and hence it wouldn't be wise to murder them. What would the public have done if they discovered that Palpatine had attempted to wipe out the followers of an entire religion for no reason whatsoever? You would have had the reverse effect of the attempted Jedi assassination on Palpatine. The public would have demanded that Palpatine be hunted down, and brought to justice.

Quite simply, the Jedi got was coming to them. They thought they were above the law. They persecuted those whose beliefs differed from theirs. They attempted to kill prisoners in cold blood. They were weak, arrogant, and foolish. And they got PWNED. That's the way of life. The strong and wise replace the weak and stupid.
 
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As the article states, the Empire was good to those who went by the law and kept under the radar. It also provided jobs to many people throughout the universe (mainly humans tho).
 
Everyone keeps saying that things were bad under the old republic (piracy, corruption, oppression, etc), but there is simply no evidence in any of the movies to support this claim. Indeed, the aliens blockading Naboo in episode 1 appear to be quite worried that the senate will lay the smack down on them for their illegal blockade of a defenseless planet. The only evidence that the senate is full of squabbling and corrupt bureaucrats are statements made by Palpatine when he was trying to justify his power grab.

Similarly, there is no evidence whatsoever that life was any better under the empire. And now, of course, you might have your planet blown up just because the empire wants to try out their new toy.
 
Nasor:
The only evidence that the senate is full of squabbling and corrupt bureaucrats are statements made by Palpatine when he was trying to justify his power grab.
WRONG! Watch the prequels again. Anakin, the Jedi Council, and even Padme come to realize how inefficient the Senate and the squabbling bureaucrats are. That's exactly why the Jedi Council supported Senator Palpatine being granted emergency powers. Because the Senate could not act effectively to the growing 'threat' of the Separatists.

Indeed, the aliens blockading Naboo in episode 1 appear to be quite worried that the senate will lay the smack down on them for their illegal blockade of a defenseless planet.
Worried worried, worried. Worried like the Iran is worried of UN military intervention. The Viceroy headed a huge corporation, and knew that the likelihood of the Senate uniting to bring him down was close to nil. He wouldn't have taken the risk if the odds hadn't have been in his favour.

In fact, your example works AGAINST you, because the Republic did not send an 'interplanetary' army to help one of her own members. In fact, the only reason that Naboo regained its independence was because of Naboo and Gungan warriors.

One of the Republic's OWN MEMBERS was under attack by a large corporation, yet it lacked the unity, virtue and strength to act as a decent international body. Pathetic. How would such a government react to an invasion by another galatic army?
 
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mountainhare said:
Nasor:

WRONG! Watch the prequels again. Anakin, the Jedi Council, and even Padme come to realize how inefficient the Senate and the squabbling bureaucrats are. That's exactly why the Jedi Council supported Senator Palpatine being granted emergency powers. Because the Senate could not act effectively to the growing 'threat' of the Separatists.
Like everyone else in this thread, you are simply making up things that can't be backed up from the movies. I suggest it is you who need to watch the prequels again – you seem to be imagining things that never happened. Except for Anakin, the jedi never supported Palpatine's emergency powers. If you have a reference from any of the movies to back up your claim, feel free to post it. Padme never supported the emergency powers either - she merely supported making Palpatine the new chancellor. Palpatine had to wait until Padme was gone to make his grab for the emergency powers.

Worried worried, worried. Worried like the Iran is worried of UN military intervention. The Viceroy headed a huge corporation, and knew that the likelihood of the Senate uniting to bring him down was close to nil. He wouldn't have taken the risk if the odds hadn't have been in his favour.

In fact, your example works AGAINST you, because the Republic did not send an 'interplanetary' army to help one of her own members. In fact, the only reason that Naboo regained its independence was because of Naboo and Gungan warriors.

One of the Republic's OWN MEMBERS was under attack by a large corporation, yet it lacked the unity, virtue and strength to act as a decent international body. Pathetic. How would such a government react to an invasion by another galatic army?
Again, you clearly didn't pay attention to the movie. After learning that the senate has sent two jedi, one of the aliens says "They were sent to force a settlement. We're done for!" The other replies "Stay calm. I'll wager the senate isn't aware of our moves here yet." They then call Palpatine/Sidious and say "This scheme of yours has failed, Lord Sidious. The blockade is finished. We dare not go against the senate!" Palpatine tells them to begin landing their troops. One of the aliens asks in surprise "Is that legal?" Palpatine replies "I will make it legal".

Clearly the trade federation was quite scared of the senate, and in fact were convinced that they would have to lift the blockade simply because the senate had found out about it and had sent someone to demand that they stop. They only proceeded because Palpatine assured them that he could interfere to prevent the senate from stomping them, and because they were probably terrified of what Sidious would do to them if they disobeyed him.

Indeed, the senate was about to vote to stomp them until Palpatine's man interfered and convinced the chancellor to appoint a committee to investigate. Note that the guy who's whispering in the chancellor's ear right before the chancellor agrees to appoint a committee is the same guy who's following Palpatine around everywhere in episode III.
 
Nasor:
Like everyone else in this thread, you are simply making up things that can't be backed up from the movies. I suggest it is you who need to watch the prequels again – you seem to be imagining things that never happened.
LOL. Dumb kids can't even analyse movies these days.

Yoda didn't seem to mind the Chancellor having emergency powers when he made use of the Clone Warriors to help the Jedi on Geonosis...
 
mountainhare said:
Nasor:


Yoda didn't seem to mind the Chancellor having emergency powers when he made use of the Clone Warriors to help the Jedi on Geonosis...
Well, obviously he was going to take advantage of them if they were available...I don't see what your point is. The fact remains that there is not one shred of evidence that life was better (or safer) for anyone under imperial rule, and a lot of evidence that it was worse.
 
mountainhare said:
How would such a government react to an invasion by another galatic army?
Read the books about Yuuzhan Vong invasion. The New Republic, based on the old one's system of government, gets creamed, shattered, and destroyed. They have to ally with the Imperial remnant and other powers to survive.
 
yuuzhan vong kick ASS with their bio-starships and such..

also, in episode I, does anyone recognize the old chancellor?

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD, SON OF JAREL!!! so cool!!
 
Star Wars is not so much about the Republic versus the Empire as it is about the Jeid versus the Sith. Choice versus obedience. In the Republic leaders were chosen; in the Empire the Emperor is obeyed. Treachery is the way of the Sith. The Jedi serve justice.
"Even disbanded, even without legal authority, still Jedi we would be. Jedi Knights served the Force long before there was a Galatic Republic, and serve it we will when this Republic is but dust" Yoda
 
candy:
In the Republic leaders were chosen
Not so. Why does everyone here seem to think that the Old Republic was an efficient, truly democratic institution?

Corruption was rife in the Senate, the bureaucrats were retards, and the huge corporations had everyone bent over a barrel. Anyone who reads or plays EU knows that the Old Republic was in decline for ages.

And DON'T blame this corruption and retardation on the Sith. Palpatine never created these flaws, he exploited them. There's a huge difference.

Quite simply, the Emperor did what one of the Ottoman Sultans done (forgotten which one though). That big businesses and a corrupt 'noble' class were leeching away the power of the centralized ruler, and hence making for an inefficient empire. So he took steps to remove them.

Treachery is the way of the Sith.
Treachery was a tool used by the Republic and the Jedi. Every individual or group in power uses treachery and deceit to maintain power. The only real difference between Palpatine and the Jedi was that the Jedi were decadent, whereas the Emperor was not.

The Jedi serve justice.
By allowing Anakin to slaughter Tusken women and children unquestioned and unpunished?
By killing unarmed prisoners?
By lying?
By snatching children away from their parents?
By allowing and promoting slavery?
By refusing to allow planets to secede?
By persecuting other religions?
 
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