A Call to Christians

Balerion

Banned
Banned
Ok, seeing as I cannot get one single Christian to reply to my proofs of the Bible being tampered with and altered over the millenia, I will simply ask them to explain themselves the meanings of the Bible. If there are a good amount of replies from Christians, I will post a few more questions, but for not, here are a few key points I wish them to explain:

1) Did you know that the word translated to "God" is actually plural? Well, it is (Elohiym is a plural word, and is translated to God in the Bible) On top of that, it is said IN THE BIBLE that God "Sits among the other gods, and judges among them." That indicates that he is not the only one. It doesn't say angels or fairies; it says GODS. And in NUMEROUS verses, God says "Us," "We," and "Our." Explain that one.

2) Why do you consider Heaven to be supernatural when in fact, in the Bible, Heaven is equated to being UP, and THE SKY AND STARS?

3) Same for God itself. Why is he considered supernatural among you people when in many verses of the Bible, God is described as having hands, hair, a face, eyes, ect., ect.?
 
JD,

Since the same groups of manuscripts are used every time the Bible is translated, no "changes" are possible. Different translations are possible, which is why most people use two or three during Bible study. Check www.biblegateway.com.

1) I have addressed this in another thread somewhere, but I'll repeat it here:
Elohim is considered a plural form of the singular Eloha "God" because of the M ending, but since the verb used with it is always singular, like bara "created" it does in fact indicate the One God.

Why "us"? - John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Is. 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”
God (singular) speaks of Himself as Us (plural). It's not proof of the Trinity, but it's the only way it makes sense.

2)Because we are human. We still use heavens/sky as synonymns even today. The language also reflects the world view of the time (one way of dating a passage is to correlate its language with the period in which that language would have been used). Apart from that - on earth, everywhere is "up". Heaven is a conceptual construct for something we cannot really comprehend.

3) The same for God himself. We observe and describe what we perceive. Therefore God can be described as a "jealous" God, since it is just a way of describing how He feels about our relationship with Him and with false gods or idols. To people, there are other gods. Why else would God say we should follow no other god beside Him? I also refer you to the "contest" between the Israelites and the priests of Baal.

You really should supply verses to back up your statements, so that I can address them properly.

God is spiritual. If we say "hands" or "feet", it again serves to help our understanding of Him, and our kinship with Him. "In God's hands", "at His right hand", or "at His feet" are all quite easy to picture. Therefore you get expression like:
Exodus 15:6
"Your right hand, O LORD , was majestic in power. Your right hand, O LORD, shattered the enemy.
Nobody saw a great right hand coming down from the sky. These are expressions.

Another illustration of such language:
Psalm 44:3
It was not by their sword that they won the land, nor did their arm bring them victory; it was your right hand, your arm, and the light of your face, for you loved them.

The wonderful thing is that we have been given Jesus as the embodiment of God. He could be seen, touched, and believed. He could "ascend to heaven" and "sit at the right hand of God". You don't get metaphors any more real than that...
 
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2)Because we are human. We still use heavens/sky as synonymns even today. The language also reflects the world view of the time (one way of dating a passage is to correlate its language with the period in which that language would have been used). Apart from that - on earth, everywhere is "up". Heaven is a conceptual construct for something we cannot really comprehend.

Ok, so how does that make sense? Everywhere is up? I don't get it. That entire paragraph does nothing to answer the question. Basically, what you're saying is that man interpeted Heaven to be "Up;" it wasn't God's word. But there is no evidence that "Up" meant anything but what it means today. So to call it the language of the times is a non-point.

You're wrong. God himself said "Look to heaven, and tell the stars..." So how do you equate Heven being up to a concept man created? God himself told this guy to look to the stars. The stars aren't always up, though, depending on your vantage point, but they are always in the sky. Which means Heaven must be the sky. GOD SAID SO HIMSELF.

Since the same groups of manuscripts are used every time the Bible is translated, no "changes" are possible.

Ha. Read up on Biblical translations and the sort, and you will find that many kings had the Bible edited; King James being the most notorious of the bunch. His version of the Bible is said to be the most heavily edited EVER.

If we say "hands" or "feet", it again serves to help our understanding of Him, and our kinship with Him. "In God's hands", "at His right hand", or "at His feet" are all quite easy to picture.

Again, this would be true if not for the words of God himself. Right now I don't have a Bible at my disposal, so I cannot name verses for you, but I will amend this post with the proper scriptures later. It is said that God "Walked before moses" and that Moses "Saw God's face, yet was allowed to live." and even God says that he has a mouth, when he says "Nor will you hear them from my mouth."

Since everything God said was taken literally, why should a physical description of him be taken metaphorically? And on top of that, God says in Genesis "Let us make Man in our image..." And here we are, complete with arms, legs, a head, eyes, a mouth, ears, feet, hands and hair!

Think about it...if God said "Make man in our image," but he did not intend for us to look like him, then what did he mean? Certainly it wasn't in the metaphorical sense, as that would refer to our morals, or our knowledge of right and wrong, and it is known that God did not want us to have those traits. So if it didn't mean knowledge, it didn't mean power, and it didn't mean appearance...can you explain what he meant by "In our image?"

JD
 
Ive said this before and i'll keep saying it...

Ever notice how Christians will bend and flex any statement in the bible to suit their arguments?

Christians say ... the word of God is literal and clear for all to read.
The bible speaks clearly and precisely, no games, halve truths or misconceptions.
It is written so all men equal can read its words.
( I say ..if you need a degree to understand the metaphors how is that clear and precise ? keep in mind only a small percentage of the worlds population has ever had reasonable schooling, is god only for the educated? )

So the non believer does as his Christian counterparts say and reads literally from the bible, ..after a while the non believer says - "well hey, the word of God clearly says many things that you Christians ignore, this bible has many mistakes and flaws, how do you explain this?

To this the Christians respond by changing their minds, they say: "the bible isn't always literal, take the time to read what God really means and you will see all the answers are contained within..sometimes god says things differently so we humans can understand, sometimes gods words illude us because we are not ready to hear them..but all we need do is look within his words to see what he really meant."

Hmmmmmm ...Tell me, ... which is it? Do we read the bible for what it is, exactly as it is written?
..... or
Do we choose to see our own meanings in the bible as we read past the clear words on the page, deciphering the text as if it were some Shakespearian play?

Oh how wonderful the liquid word of God must be as a tool.

Are Christians saying that this almighty God couldn't say exactly what he meant clearly enough so that no metaphors would be needed? Why speak in riddles with something apparently so important?

I've also seen cases where Christians vehemently swear the bible is pure and unchanged, no misquotes or deceit of man hath tarnished the words of the bible ...ever!
.........but then...
The story changes when its convenient, suddenly many of the newer bible versions have reprint or translation errors that simply don't suit current Christian argument.......
Doesn't this exact point, show you the word of your god can be changed? doesn't it show you that just as now words can be misquoted easily, that this bible you follow may have been misquoted either deliberately or by accident a thousand times before from generation to generation from translation to translation before you saw it?
Can you really trust this bible as your blueprint for life?

Creationists use faith, miracles, word of mouth and manipulation of the bibles tangable words to win arguments, while evolutionists must show hardcore physical facts... interesting how unbalanced the scales are indeed.
 
Since the same groups of manuscripts are used every time the Bible is translated, no "changes" are possible. Different translations are possible, which is why most people use two or three during Bible study.

But, a slightly differing translation can have extreme consequences in the realm of understanding, and can in fact completely change the context of belief.

As a brief example:

KJV: In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth

NIV: In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth.

That has just one letter of difference and yet it can change the entire meaning of the whole sentence. Ok, i agree this isn't the best example there is, but it was the quickest to find :)

1) I have addressed this in another thread somewhere, but I'll repeat it here:
Elohim is considered a plural form of the singular Eloha "God" because of the M ending, but since the verb used with it is always singular, like bara "created" it does in fact indicate the One God.

Some people have laid claim to Elohim being like the word sheep, (in that it remains the same singular or plural)- of course this is faulty because sheep, (and other words of that nature), do not have a singular root, whereas Elohim does: 'Eloah'.

However, the reason the Hebrews use the word "Elohim" is that it is a holy word to them and they must not change that word that to a believer in one god must and can only mean "God."

So we must ask why they chose a plural word for the use of one god, and thus leave many grammatical errors in the bible. We see why when we look at the Sumerian texts which preceded and led to the original stories incorporated into the bible.

Elohim is widely considered to be a "loan word", taken from those previous cultures, (Sumer, Akkadia, Babylon), that all believed in multiple gods. When the hebrews adopted it they could not change its form, as it was holy, and the book load of grammar problems is the otucome.

Why "us"? - John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Is. 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”
God (singular) speaks of Himself as Us (plural). It's not proof of the Trinity, but it's the only way it makes sense.

Now we move on to gods speech. Much that grammar errors would occur from a word taken from a different culture, wouldn't gods actual speech always be singular if he was only one god? The trinity is the easy excuse but it's not the only one that makes sense. If, as is readily apparent, the texts were handed down stories from older cultures the plurality in gods speech would be seen as being the fact the older cultures had multiple gods. Of course, it would be a sin i assume for anyone to study to see the bible as, in general, nothing more than a handed down story based on a completely different belief- but it is overwhelmingly hard to just ignore.

The inconsistencies within textual grammar would occur when changing a plural word to singular, but the speech of god is unchangeable and so has retained its plural behaviour.

Isaiah 6: I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe(?) filled the temple. Above him were two seraphs... "..and my eyes have seen the king, the lord almighty." ...... Then i heard the voice of the lord saying: "whom shall i send? And who will go for us?"

This whole part bears no relevance to the 'multiple gods' case. It's quite apparent god's talking to his seraphs. (strange 6 winged things that remove Isaiahs sin of looking at god).

You might also want to elaborate on the john passage- i don't see how you relate that sentence to being an explanation for 'us'.

2)Because we are human. We still use heavens/sky as synonymns even today. The language also reflects the world view of the time (one way of dating a passage is to correlate its language with the period in which that language would have been used). Apart from that - on earth, everywhere is "up". Heaven is a conceptual construct for something we cannot really comprehend.

(except of course hell, which is down :D). The evidence present strongly suggests heaven simply relating to space. Of course it all changes according to bible version...

And god said; "Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and for years; and let them be for lights in the fimament of heaven to give light upon the earth."

This is right at the very beginning of the book and quite simply shows heaven as being space. When we die, the lucky ones, get to spend eternity floating around in space.

According to this text Neil Armstrong has been lucky enough to walk in heaven while alive- which god knew would happen, (if you read about the tower of babel).

3) The same for God himself. We observe and describe what we perceive. Therefore God can be described as a "jealous" God, since it is just a way of describing how He feels about our relationship with Him and with false gods or idols.

Emotion and physical attributes are not the same. Furthermore it's not just what humans describe about him. god himself explains his emotions verbally.

Emotions aside there are many references to physical attributes- some subtle, some more 'head-on'. Even one of the passages you quoted: Isaiah 6-.

I will give the complete and total listing of all mentions of physical attributes when i have finished my whole analysis. There really is, thus far, very little to suggest god as being anything other than physical.

Why else would God say we should follow no other god beside Him?

If god was a physical, perhaps even mortal, being among many he wouldn't want his subjects going off to worship the other gods. The more they worship other gods the less gold, silver, meat and fine cloth he receives through sacrifice.
 
The Bible is not an easy read for anyone let alone Christians. Thats why there are theologians, and everyone is entitled to there own interpretation of the Bible.

The Bible was first written in Hebrew and Greek and the meanings and interpretations to (finally) English were confusing.

For example, heaven would be a different word to heavens in the initial writings. But the interpretations into other languages would not allow for the same meanings, simply because the corresponding words didn't exist in that language.

The Bible is probably the most powerful and influential collection of books on this planet
 
Originally posted by JDawg


Think about it...if God said "Make man in our image," but he did not intend for us to look like him, then what did he mean? Certainly it wasn't in the metaphorical sense, as that would refer to our morals, or our knowledge of right and wrong, and it is known that God did not want us to have those traits. So if it didn't mean knowledge, it didn't mean power, and it didn't mean appearance...can you explain what he meant by "In our image?"

JD
I believe that the interpretation of this was that "God made man in his own image", meant that he made "man" as in mankind is his own image.
 
Originally posted by Siddhartha
Hint: Never try to argue with a Christian. They are the single most lost cause in all humanity.
I wouldn't say Christians are a lost cause, they are seeking the truth like we all are. The difference is they have chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus whereas the rest of us look elsewhere. We are all in the same boat searching the same goal.
 
I believe that the interpretation of this was that "God made man in his own image", meant that he made "man" as in mankind is his own image.

...No shit, Sherlock! That still doesn't explain what he meant by "IN OUR IMAGE." And just to be clear, he never once says "IN MY IMAGE." He says "IN OUR IMAGE."

Now SOMEBODY...ANYBODY...explain to me what he meant by IMAGE if he wasn't refering to our knlowedge, morals, or appearance!
 
JD,
To put it in three words: From our perspective...
If you need to quote/search from the Bible, go to www.biblegateway.net

"Look to heaven" - where else would we look? What else would we see than stars? It is always up from any person's perspective. I know if you look at a piece of paper with a drawing of the earth on it you will be able to imagine yourself looking down at China or the stars "below", or jumping down. Or moving at the speed of the earth's rotation. But go outside and look around, and all that is gone.

The idea at the time was God did not live on earth... so He must live in the sky... but not just the "sky" we see above earth - in the heavenly realm... i.e. in heaven! And the devil doesn't live in heaven, and not on the earth... so he must live under the earth - the underworld! So "wherever" they really exist, this is what we'll call it. Heaven and hades.

So, what version of the Bible did King James edit in 1611? Not an English one, I'm pretty sure. He must have had it translated. From where? The Latin translation. An edited translation of a translation. No wonder there were problems. Otherwise we would still have been reading John 3:16:
"for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif," (Wycliff Bible, 1380). Or even better:
"God lufode middan-eard swa, dat he seade his an-cennedan sunu, dat nan ne forweorde de on hine gely ac habbe dat ece lif." (995 AD)

Every Bible is translated from the earliest source material, using the newest techniques, mostly by scholars who have utmost reverence for the text (if you doubt the credibility of the scholar, then doubt the translation). There are literal translations, there are interpretative translations (conveying the meaning of what was said), and there are over 300 different languages, and there are different styles of writing. 95% of the world don't speak English as a first language, and I'm sure most of them haven't even seen the King James version. So what effect would your "heavily edited version" have on them?

The Bible I use at the moment was translated straight from the extant sources into modern day Afrikaans. I can compare it to the Dutch one, the German one, the Xhosa, Sotho, Zulu (or any of the 11 official languages of South Africa) and yes... even one of the many English ones available (there are 15 on Biblegateway).

And I'm sure if my Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek was up to scratch, and I made a study of their cultures, history and languages, I would be able to tranlate it myself.

When God said "I will protect you with my stick and my staff", it is evident from the shephard metaphor what was meant. It does NOT mean God has a stick and a staff.

And again: We believe the Word (Jesus) was the first man, even before Adam, and from His image were we created. The son of God did not appear to us as a cloud of smoke. You'll see in Genesis that God also walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. Since Adam and Eve were the first humans, I'm sure it doesn't refer to anybody but God in the form of Jesus. And Moses might have seen the face of Jesus. It is not crucial to know whether it was literal or metaphorical. It makes no difference to what is being said.

Some of you say that the Bible is either literal or its figurative. No wonder you have problems reading it. There are 66 books in the Bible. Even within one book you get varieties of text - prose and poetry. If you studied ancient literature you'll see many examples of similar literature (just ask Snakelord - who takes the Sumerian writings very literally it seems). If you would like to challenge an interpretation of a text, then paste it here and show me why you think it is literal or not, and we can exchange opinions.
 
"Look to heaven" - where else would we look?

According to a 'strain' of popular christian belief 'heaven' is in another dimension so why would we look anywhere? The only reason to look is if that which we are looking at can be seen. Quite simply put the stars, sun and moon are in heaven- as the bible says- which any person could tell you is 'space'. When you look for space you look up, and hence-look at heaven.

The idea at the time was God did not live on earth...

There's many moments in the bible, (off the top of my head- exodus/leviticus), where it's quite apparent god does reside on earth. Again i could go on about his overwhelmingly apparent physical nature- but we've been through it already and it's rather pointless now until i have completed the entire 'physical attributes' section of my analysis.

So "wherever" they really exist

So "If" they really exist. There is very little evidence to suggest any modern day belief has basis to suggest credibility. The bible can and will be argued upon until the end of eternity :bugeye: but the only true remotely credible stance is to say "god spoke to me". I give that the same 'benefit of the doubt' i give to people who say they were abducted by aliens, spoke to their long since dead grandmothers and anything else of that nature. It is futile to even try to disprove such a claim. I'm sure you're old enough to know whether what you heard/saw was god or whether it was your own brain giving you reassurances at moments of doubt and hardship in your life. I will therefore give you the benefit of the doubt- but the same does not apply to everyone. Those of us, who have not heard/seen god have only the bible to go by- and that is as faulty a case of written works you're ever likely to see.

"for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,"

Oh man! i was reading this old book about the god known as 'euerlastynge liif', you now telling me he's a fake?? :D

When God said "I will protect you with my stick and my staff", it is evident from the shephard metaphor what was meant. It does NOT mean God has a stick and a staff.

Can you state passage please i'd like to look further into it.

And again: We believe the Word (Jesus) was the first man, even before Adam, and from His image were we created. The son of God did not appear to us as a cloud of smoke. You'll see in Genesis that God also walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. Since Adam and Eve were the first humans, I'm sure it doesn't refer to anybody but God in the form of Jesus. And Moses might have seen the face of Jesus. It is not crucial to know whether it was literal or metaphorical. It makes no difference to what is being said.

I first mentioned the physical presence of god in the garden of eden quite a while back. If my memory serves correctly you debated against it with me. Now it seems times have changed and it's now jesus who was there. That is complete and total unfounded speculation, so there's little point progressing along such a path. I even had one guy tell me the rock moses smacked was jesus. You guys will try anything...

(just ask Snakelord - who takes the Sumerian writings very literally it seems).

The sumerian texts have a great deal of importance to anyone who reads or believes the bible. They are most likely, some of the original source works to that bible you now trust inherently and without question. As such i would have thought it of the utmost value to anyone interested in truth. Whether or not there were space travelling aliens is irrelevant. It's most probably the original works of your genesis, exodus etc etc etc... The only apparent reason someone would dismiss it without consideration is because they fear what it actually says. Fear is not an option in the realm of truth. Fear holds people back- it stops them from doing things that, yes-may be dangerous, but are integral to learning the truth. You must fear god- accept and have faith- never question.... it's the activity of a man with something to hide.

If you would like to challenge an interpretation of a text, then paste it here and show me why you think it is literal or not, and we can exchange opinions.

And who has the authority to make the final judgement on what is literal and what isn't? If nobody does, doesn't that show no-one has the slightest clue about the bible, about it's truths or otherwise?
 
Nobody has the final judgement. The same applies to the Sumerian texts. What counts for the Bible is a tradition that has been preserved since its earliest form, while we have no more Sumerian believers. Evolutionary speaking, the fittest survived. And the truth is what remains after untruths have been done away with. In that aspects, at least, the Bible is pretty much self-containing.
 
Originally posted by SnakeLord
And god said; "Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and for years; and let them be for lights in the fimament of heaven to give light upon the earth."

This is right at the very beginning of the book and quite simply shows heaven as being space. When we die, the lucky ones, get to spend eternity floating around in space.

According to this text Neil Armstrong has been lucky enough to walk in heaven while alive- which god knew would happen, (if you read about the tower of babel).

I very well could be wrong, but doesn't "firmament" literally mean "air"?

Does anyone know what the "original" word was and what it is literally translated to in English?
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Evolutionary speaking, the fittest survived. And the truth is what remains after untruths have been done away with. In that aspects, at least, the Bible is pretty much self-containing.

True, speaking from a purely evolutionary standpoint, the fittest DID survive.

Kill off your enemies (Crusades, Inquisition etc.) and you will eradicate their beliefs.
 
Oh no not that one again... not the light!!... aaarrgghhh!!

T.S. Eliot said about the crusades: "Among [them] were a few good men, Many who were evil, And most who were neither, Like all men in all places."

They were a reaction to centuries of assaults on Christendom by Arab and other Islamic forces; they were also the product of that same powerful, active, aggressive, curious, energetic approach which made Western Civilization the master of most of the globe by 1900.

So don't complain too much. You could even blame the crusades for 9/11 if you wanted to. The holocaust of the Jews was much worse than the Crusades or the Inquisition. Both Jews and Judaism survived.

By the way, only the first crusade against Jerusalem was successful - the other six failed. And today Muslims outnumber Christians. I don't see your point. The "Crusades, Inquisition etc." did Christianity in general more harm than good, and its effects on Western society were more intricate than you seem to realize.
 
Wrong, this isn't about 'fittest survived', it's not a competition. It's more about progression and sharing of beliefs into new cultures and systems. Back in the days of the Sumerians there was no worldly connected society. As people started travelling, migrating to new areas, exploring new lands, their beliefs were handed down and passed along, morphed- changed- translated. Wars of extreme magnitude took place- killing off entire people and entire beliefs. Look at the people who settled in America long long ago. The red indians were stomped into the mud and a whole new belief was forced into the system. Ok, you could call this 'survival of the fittest' but it gives no credibility to truth and cannot be used in the competition standards by which you seem to attribute it. There was a time where people were forced to be of a specific religion, times of mass persecution for those who weren't of a specific religion and so on. The base of the bible is still quite readily apparent to be based on Sumerian texts. The sumerian people died out completely- their beliefs remained intact- but vastly morphed as time ensued.

Furthermore not everyone will rely on simple word of mouth. Many would want to see the written texts. In the sumerians case they kept the texts sealed in their temples- unavailable to the public. The people didn't have much choice but to rely on simple word of mouth- and recounted, (but most probably quite morphed), versions of stories.

Now imagine texts being lost for long periods of time. The men would simply find new beliefs.... This can be seen in II Kings 22/23: In short the earlier bible scrolls were found by chance and king josiah heard them for the first time and ordered all idols in the temples to be destroyed and the passover to be observed. It says, "this is the first time the Passover was observed since the days of the Judges and all the days of the kings of Israel and Judah" which would be between 200 and 300 years.

It doesn't take long for a belief to be forgotten if it's not openly available to be read as text. Furthermore one must wonder how they'd forgotten considering surely god would have led them- would have reminded them, as he often did, about how he saved the jews from egypt. Strange that a belief should be forgotten so easily with a god in existence...

Even today beliefs morph and change constantly. It's not so much 'fittest survive' as it is 'change to suit the needs, trends and times'. Fear holds many people prisoner. Nowadays we're all doomed to hell if we dont subscribe so many wouldn't even dream of considering anything else. It's not surprising the most prevalent religion is the one that openly damns non-followers to hell. If christianity said "everyone enters heaven regardless" there'd only be 100 or so christians.

Not only that threat- but in the past threat of death by the hands of those who sought to promote their belief. Promotion is fine- but threatening to chop a persons head off doesn't offer much choice.

And so these beliefs spread like wildfire- constantly changing to suit the pattern of time.

It still remains that if you want the most accurate version of a story, you go to the original source works- not the re-prints.
 
Originally posted by JDawg
...No shit, Sherlock! That still doesn't explain what he meant by "IN OUR IMAGE." And just to be clear, he never once says "IN MY IMAGE." He says "IN OUR IMAGE."

Now SOMEBODY...ANYBODY...explain to me what he meant by IMAGE if he wasn't refering to our knlowedge, morals, or appearance!
Don't be sarcastic, I'm just trying to understand what the Bible means. from the aspect of a non-Christian - me!.

The Bible says "God made man(mankind) in his own image".Now I would take that means the whole of mankind as a unit, y'know the whole identity of mankind, can you visualise that?

What was the answer you really wanted to hear?

It is so easy to disregard the Bible and scoff at the meanings to be found in it. But I am willing to meet it halfway, and listen with an open mind. The Bible has stood the test of time and it is still here today. It has been ridicled and questioned by the best, yet it still lives on, it isn't going away. Now, I for one, want to find out the mysteries about the Bible.

I am not a Christian, but that is no reason for me to discredit the Bible.
 
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I very well could be wrong, but doesn't "firmament" literally mean "air"?

Does anyone know what the "original" word was and what it is literally translated to in English?

Well i can say this at the very least:

KJV: '...let there be lights in the firmament of heaven...'

NJV: '...let there be lights in the vault of heaven...'

NIV: '...let there be lights in the expanse of the sky...'

They all go on to say: 'thus the heavens and the earth were completed in their vast array.'

This offers absolutely no suggestion of 'the heavens' being anything other than space and there's no reason to even consider it as being anything other. However, is there a difference between firmament, vault and expanse?

Firmament in dictionary.com says: The region of the air; the sky or heavens.

If we look a few lines earlier in gen we see this:

And god said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Does it mean 'air' in this context? Ok, i haven't slept in about 32 hours, such is raging insomnia, but it's puzzling me a bit right now.
 
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