11 year old brutally kills a 3 year old... Who should really be held accountable?

[Bells]

I read this story and felt utter horror at what was done to this 3 year old by another child.

An 11-year-old boy has pleaded guilty to kidnapping and murdering a 3-year-old, admitting he beat the toddler with a baseball bat and dumped him face down in a drainage ditch.

The defendant, who was 10 at the time of the crime, told a judge Thursday that he brutalized the youngster because the boy was bothering him and wanted to use his scooter, people who attended the closed juvenile proceeding told The Star-Ledger of Newark....

....Authorities have described the accused as a deeply troubled youth who repeatedly fought with neighborhood children and was expelled from two schools.

What appalled me with this story is that not only did he lure and beat this child, but he left this baby for dead in that gutter. The 3 year old died the next day in the hospital. We have all read and heard of stories where a child has committed crimes that are so vile that we cringe just at the thought of it. In this particular case, this boy had apparently been abused by his father in 2002 but social services had failed to remove him from the home. However, it is the victims mother who is suing for the neglect suffered by the accused.

Is this a case of the mother wanting revenge for what was done to her child? While money will not replace her child, should social services be held accountable? More importantly, is it the abuse that led this child to commit such a crime? I look at my little cousins who are around the same age as the accused and I can't imagine how a child, a baby really, can commit such a horrid act. I keep asking myself if it is the child himself who is to blame or the system? Is the child just a psychopath or a victim? Who should really be blamed for this?

 

[yinyinwang]

The same and even more brutality happened in china during the "culture revolution" era by young of similar ages, I think the society, the family and the defendent all contribute to the crime.

 

[sargentlard]

Who should really be blamed for this?

TV, Videogames, movies, music...Marylin Manson in particular and Eminem

I keep asking myself if it is the child himself who is to blame or the system? Is the child just a psychopath or a victim?

There isn't one particluar party at fault here. It seems like this hatred and anger was a product of many factors working together. From an abusive father to a neglegent social services system. This kid could have been teased for being kicked out of schools or just have been aviodant and neglected all together.

 

[Ozymandias]

Sargentlard speaks wisdom: I'd post my own reply, but it'd end up looking like a re-wording of what 'lard just said...

 

[Flores]

Again, not every abused or neglected 10 year old commits such a violent horrible crime, and thus the personal responsbility element of the child will never quite go away in such a case.

 

[wesmorris]

*vomits*

oh man that's gross.

what a little piece of shit kid.

a ten year old, unless severely disabled, fucking knows better.

what a little piece of shit kid.

that poor baby.

*resists sobbing*

hard to say what should be done with that little piece of shit without knowing his deal.

Who is to blame?

That punkass little kid or his parents.

Blaming society is goddamn lame.

 

[sargentlard]

Originally posted by Flores
Again, not every abused or neglected 10 year old commits such a violent horrible crime, and thus the personal responsbility element of the child will never quite go away in such a case.

True enough but how much of is that factored in seeing he is only 10?......The childs own perverse wants add to the build up of this crime along with everything else. What he did is quite heavyhanded by every means but at 10 how much of it is his fault?

Did he simply not know better and mixed with his rage he acted out his anger?

Then should he be confined or locked away to put a halt to this childs lack of remorse for others?

 

[Yes]

Everybody who knew about this childs situation and did nothing to help him is to blame, never the child.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Yes
Everybody who knew about this childs situation and did nothing to help him is to blame, never the child.

why?

you gonna tell me a ten year old kid didn't know better than to kill a young child?

i think that's a crock.

he knew better but didn't care.

he cared more about his thrill from killing that kid.

how can he grow up to be a low-risk member of society when he acts this way?

i seriously doubt that he can.

 

[Yes]

If he had been abused himself, his natural mental and emotional blocks against violence may have been removed. He probably had built up so much anger inside that he had no control over it. He needs help, not punishment.
Somewhere inside his mind he must have known that what he was doing was wrong, but perhaps that information was too muffled by rage to be heard at that moment.
His parents should definitely be put away though.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Yes
If he had been abused himself, his natural mental and emotional blocks against violence may have been removed. He probably had built up so much anger inside that he had no control over it. He needs help, not punishment.
Somewhere inside his mind he must have known that what he was doing was wrong, but perhaps that information was too muffled by rage to be heard at that moment.
His parents should definitely be put away though.

Why?????You might as well use your argument for the parents as well...Perhaps the parents were abused and their natural mental and emotional blocks againest violence may have been removed. They probably had built up so much anger inside that they had no control over their child actions. They need help, not punichment...Somewhere insde their mind they must have known that what they were doing were wrong, but perhaps that information was too muffled by rage to be heard at that moment.

The grandparents should definetly be put away though.

 

[Yes]

The difference is that the parents are adults and the child is a child.
A child has not developed emotionally and mentally enough to be held responsible for his actions. Parents are responsible for their children until the child is an adult.
But of course, I don't know about his parents life history, they might be mentally challenged, retards, who has no clue how to raise children etc, but then the situations is different. If they have "normal intelligence" they should have grown up so much, and have a certain amount of distance to their own childhood and be able to reflect upon what went wrong there and not repeat the same mistakes. But apparently this is not the case, so they also need help, in a closed facility.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Yes
The difference is that the parents are adults and the child is a child.

And another fact for you, the child commited the crime, not the parents...Are you certain that the child was abused to the point that he thought that violence is the normal way of acting...Do you have proof or knowledge of how the child was raised...What if the child went to his parents and told them that he wants his toy back that was stolen by the 4 year old, and the parents turned around and told him to forget and forgive....that answer not being satisfactory to the child has the led the child to take the extreme way...The child then hid the body the best he know in the drainage ditch because he didn't want his nice parents to find out. Is this scenario possible, or the abused beat up child the only scenario that could lead to the making of a child murderer.

 

[Yes]

Originally posted by Bells
In this particular case, this boy had apparently been abused by his father in 2002 but social services had failed to remove him from the home.

I was refering to this in my last post.
Of course I have no proof of anything regarding this child and neither have you. We can only discuss this case based on the information that is given to us.
This child can have a braindamage from birth or caused by abuse, but still the child can't be punished, only helped to deal with what he has done and be instantly removed from his parents.
You can never give up on a child, saying this is a lost case, throw him away, or whatever. It's never too late to change, especially for a child.

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: 11 year old brutally kills a 3 year old... Who should really be held accountable?

Originally posted by Yes
Of course I have no proof of anything regarding this child and neither have you.

You are wrong here, I have proof that he commited a hideous crime in the name of selfishness, mistreated the body, and never expressed remorse. You got Jack on his background to warrant that he commited the crime while being blurred in thoughts as you claim.

Originally posted by Yes
We can only discuss this case based on the information that is given to us.

Exactly, so stop bringing excuses that don't pertain anything to the case like parents possible abuse. Those excuses will only work if he killed the parents in supposidly self defence to escape their hell.

Originally posted by Yes
This child can have a braindamage from birth or caused by abuse, but still the child can't be punished,

Without a punichment there was no crime....Do you want to consider the family of the 4 year old girl for one second before you rally spending millions of tax payers money to amend the unamendable.

Originally posted by Yes
only helped to deal with what he has done and be instantly removed from his parents.

How do you know that the parents are the problem.

Originally posted by Yes
You can never give up on a child, saying this is a lost case, throw him away, or whatever. It's never too late to change, especially for a child.

Tell that to the parents that lost an innocent 4 year old...Tell them all about the chances availalbe for their daughter and never being too late in saving her, and that their daughter is not a lost case....Lecture us all about that will ya. While you are at it, promise us all that this child will not kill another....Get us the same doctor that will say that the child is instable to testify that the child is a safe citizen who will never kill again.

 

[Yes]

First of all, as it says in the original post, it was a 3-year old boy, not a 4-year old girl. It also said that the parents had abused the 11-year old. This is the information we have. If you want to make up your own information about a fantasy case, then do that, but then we can't discuss this particular case anymore.
And besides, you know nothing either, accept that ( unless you personally know this boy and his parents). All your points have is a frightening mobmentality to them, so I hope the parents of the killed boy and the court that handles this case has more empathy than you.
Tell me, what is your solution, to kill this boy too?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Yes
First of all, as it says in the original post, it was a 3-year old boy, not a 4-year old girl.

That's even worse, what pea brain 10 year old that kills a 3 year old over a toy??

Originally posted by Yes
Tell me, what is your solution, to kill this boy too?

Not at all, I never said kill the boy, althought that I think it is a good option...Killing the boy is a good deterrent for other kids and the society will gain all the way and loose nothing...Neverthless, I suggest that he gets locked up in isolation and worked so hard to pay the society for the great loss of that 3 year old that never lived to see the light..The boy should spend his teen years and part of his twenties doing the following:
1- 3 hours of rigourous studying and testing in isolation.
2- 5 hours of hard labor including scrubbing toilets, picking up roadway trash, painting, mulching, volunteering to beautify schools, ect, cooking his own food, sawing his own cloth, ect. His work load needs to be managed such as it pays for part of his prison stay.
3- 1 hour of excercise.
4- 1/2 hour of watching movies about how evil people hurt this earth and never amount to anything.
5- 1/2 hour of watching movies about role model citizens and how they live their lives.
6- 1 hour studying every night before bedtime about the victim impact...
7- Lights off for the remainder 13 hours for sleep while soft classical music plays in the background.

When he turn 24 and only if he managed to pass all his university level courses in scrubbing floors or nuclear physics, then he could be let out. A renouned phcyciatist must attest that the boy has been ammended. He must have plans on what to do before he is let out.

Now, what is your suggestion.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

That's fine, I'm not going to quibble with your punishment for the boy. (Excuse me for jumping into this thread but I've been following it since it started.) Not too much anyway. It sounds an awful lot like the old standard way of dealing with "unruly" kids: send them to military school. That's pretty much what happens to them in military school. I've met plenty of military school graduates who were sent there because they were assholes. Guess what? They were all still assholes.

But I haven't got anything better to suggest so like I say, I can't argue with your suggestion. The whole point seems to be that by the time a kid gets that old and has an evil personality, it's practically impossible to fix it.

But you're talking about a ten year old, not a high school age kid. Geeze, I hope that at that age they're still salvageable. There's a lot of development going on in a kid's mind and spirit between the age of ten and high school. Most ten year olds barely understand life and death, cause and effect, personal responsibility. (Hell, a lot of adults still haven't grasped it.)

So maybe your military school approach will help. Who am I to argue.

But what the hell about the damn parents? Yes of course personal responsibility is an issue, even though ten year olds have a poor grasp of the concept. Most of them don't go around killing people no matter how bad their upbringing is, so it's both fair and necessary to do something about this kid. We can't just turn him loose. I respect the consensus here for at least not voting for the death penalty. But what the hell about the damn parents? You can't tell me that they've been doing their best and just happened to have the Child From Hell and there's nothing they can do with him. In fact you've already given away the fact that they were abusive.

Notwithstanding my admission that most abused kids manage to grow up only mildly screwed up and don't murder people, the fact remains that the vast majority of men in American prisons were in fact abused children. Their parents played a major role in putting them there. Every one of their victims is owed a debt by those crappy parents.

Putting men in prison after they commit murder doesn't help their victims at all. Sending this ten year old to military school isn't going to help his victim or the parents. Nothing can help them of course. But can't we do something to help future victims not become victims? Can't we do something to break this cycle of abuse?

When child abuse finally becomes public, it almost invariably turns out that lots of people knew about it while it was going on. Neighbors, teachers, even the kid's own damn relatives. Why don't these people speak up? Adults stick up for each other! Nobody wants to bust another adult for being "mean" to a kid.

It's just like how difficult it is to do anything about drunk driving. We've all done it so we're reluctant to be too hard on other people who do it.

Well we haven't all abused a child. Sure we've all behaved like assholes from time to time and every one of us has done a thing or two that we're really ashamed of and wish to the goddess that we could go back and undo. But few of us have done anything half as bad as abusing a child repeatedly! We don't have any social obligation to protect people who do!

Let's talk about some punishment as Draconian as military school for this kid's parents. Let's talk about ostracism for all the relatives and neighbors who knew about it but didn't try to help. Let's talk about making it easier for people to come forward and report child abuse. And yes, that definitely includes throwing the book at people who file false reports like those sonsabitches in California who destroyed that preschool with their made-up reports of satanic practices. Like the bitch who claimed her kids got a razor blade in their Halloween apple. Those vermin should be hanging upside down in a public square.

It also includes going easier on people who watch the "system" do nothing to help a kid and then out of frustration step forward and do something themselves. It's a human instinct to protect children and we should not be too hard on people who follow that instinct, especially when nobody else seems to be willing to help.

Whatever you want to do to this kid, I'll support you. How about you doing the same and considering seriously what to do about the parents who are at least as guilty as the kid if not more so, and the other so-called grown-ups who knew what was going on and didn't do anything about it?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker

But you're talking about a ten year old, not a high school age kid. Geeze, I hope that at that age they're still salvageable. There's a lot of development going on in a kid's mind and spirit between the age of ten and high school. Most ten year olds barely understand life and death, cause and effect, personal responsibility. (Hell, a lot of adults still haven't grasped it.)

This is not about the well fair of the kid or making the victims feel better, I hate to bring you back to reality, but the whole justice system is about regulating a society with rules and inhibiting chaotic behavior that could disrupt the existing system.

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
So maybe your military school approach will help. Who am I to argue.

I don't see another alternative...Sure, the kid may turn into a freak, and he may be ammended...He's already a freak so I can't picture turning him to a worse freak, and I suggest keeping in custody until he is assessed to be no harm to others.

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
But what the hell about the damn parents? You can't tell me that they've been doing their best and just happened to have the Child From Hell and there's nothing they can do with him.

I can't say much about the parents, and again unless you can show vital evidance to connect the parents to the murder, there is nothing to be done to the parents. The parents could be charged with abuse if such a case could be proven....but I don't see that it's fair to charge the parents with murder unless it could be shown that they had something to do with it....For example, if the kid went to his parents and told them that the little boy stole his toy and the parents answer, go beat the crap out of him, or kill him, then they can be most definetly be charged as an accomplice to this murder. If the child acted on his own, then we can't bring the parents into this, but we can charge them with the other ill deeds that they commited againest the boy.

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
Notwithstanding my admission that most abused kids manage to grow up only mildly screwed up and don't murder people, the fact remains that the vast majority of men in American prisons were in fact abused children. Their parents played a major role in putting them there. Every one of their victims is owed a debt by those crappy parents.

I hate to bring it to you, but not all screwed up men had screwed up parents, and vice versa, not all good men had good parents. This is from experience. You can't really put a rule to this.

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
Putting men in prison after they commit murder doesn't help their victims at all.

It's not about helping the victims, it's about instilling order in the society....

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
Sending this ten year old to military school isn't going to help his victim or the parents.

Again, it's not about the ten year old, It's about ensuring to make a decision that is safest for soceity.

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
It's just like how difficult it is to do anything about drunk driving. We've all done it so we're reluctant to be too hard on other people who do it.

I disagree here. Harsh punichments for drunk driving is safer for the soceity because it lessens the likeliness of people getting drunk and driving...The sentence scares people and the system works....not too well, but better than any other alternative.